Dream concert

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Glad to see you're trying, Rod. Isn't that the act that contains that wonderful woodbird section?

And I meant to include, the Forest Murmurs music that comes right before and continues along during the woodbird part. IMO, the greatest piece of landscape depiction in music, along with the Pastoral Symphony!

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
My point about Vivaldi is that, even though he may have repeated himself (after all, turning out a concerto for mass every Sunday and for the orphan girls to play every afternoon was his JOB), he had no one to draw on but himself, since he was at the beginning of the chain rather than at the end. ;-))

I have to point out that there were many fine Italian Baroque composers before and contemporary with Vivaldi: Alessandro Scarlatti, Corelli, Albinoni, Geminiani, and more. Vivaldi was the culmination of his age and country, just as J.S. Bach was of his and LvB (at first) of his.

[John Rasmussen]

We've come a long way from the original topic!

As long as we're dreaming, let's include Sergiu Celibidache among our dreams. I just got a few of his recordings of Brahms and Bruckner, and although I'm not sure of his tempos, the playing and singing is magnificent! And he never saw the inside of a studio! Did any of our regulars hear him live?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Glad to see you're trying, Rod. Isn't that the act that contains that wonderful woodbird section?

I'm sorry Chaszz, but it was just so incredibly boring. It just seemed to be an endless accompagnato and no true musical numbers as such.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 09, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm sorry Chaszz, but it was just so incredibly boring. It just seemed to be an endless accompagnata and no true musical numbers as such.

I admit that Wagner does sometimes ramble on. The Meistersinger is perhaps the opera with the most consistent inspiration first to last. The Ring has pages of beauty interspersed with some rambling sawing. It helps to know the story; in the act you listened to, Siegfried is led into the forest by the dwarf Mime, hears the beautiful song of the woodbird but doesn't understand it, wakes and kills the dragon, tastes some of its blood by accident and suddenly understands the bird, also suddenly understands Mime's deadly duplicity, kills Mime, and sets out following the bird to search for the Valkyrie Brunnehilde. So a lot is happening to be pondered in story and symbolism, while the music is playing, and the music makes more sense that way.

I hope to start a temporary Wagner thread here soon, the powers of the site permitting, and post MP3s of some highlights, no rambling. These will include not only a few orchestral excerpts which are found on greatest hits CDs but also some beautiful arias and duets which rarely get noticed. Along with texts or links to the texts of the parts of the librettos being played.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
We've come a long way from the original topic!

As long as we're dreaming, let's include Sergiu Celibidache among our dreams. I just got a few of his recordings of Brahms and Bruckner, and although I'm not sure of his tempos, the playing and singing is magnificent! And he never saw the inside of a studio! Did any of our regulars hear him live?

In the recordings of his that I have, mostly Tchaikowsky, the tempi is quite slow. However, he makes it work quite well. I am very interested in the Bruckner recordings as I have not heard any of those yet. The Tchaikowsky 5th Symphony is among the slowest I've ever heard, yet it is one of the most effective performances I've heard as well.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

As for myself, I find Wagner so overhelmingly great I don't care what category he is in. And he is ANYTHING but mindless.

I have a love/hate relationship with Wagner. But no matter what I feel about the man I cannot ignore the music nor the contribution he made in the world of Opera. The leitmotiv patterns in the Ring of the Nibelungen alone secure greatness in my mind for Wagner.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I have a love/hate relationship with Wagner. But no matter what I feel about the man I cannot ignore the music...

Since I am currently in love with with his music, I am slowly working my way thru Cosima Wagner's Diaries. The more one knows about him the viler a person he appears.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Since I am currently in love with with his music, I am slowly working my way thru Cosima Wagner's Diaries. The more one knows about him the viler a person he appears.

How do you like it, Chaszz? My brother is a huge Wagner fan.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 09, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Since I am currently in love with with his music, I am slowly working my way thru Cosima Wagner's Diaries. The more one knows about him the viler a person he appears.

Cosima wasn't much better! Still I do think the music should stand on its own merits despite that dreadful man! No one condemns the music of Gesualdo despite the fact that he murdered his wife or the sculptures of Cellini who was also a murderer and rather unsavoury character. Nor was Beethoven a model of good character - requesting that Zmeskall acquire him a deformed servant so he would be able to exploit his weakness!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Cosima wasn't much better! Still I do think the music should stand on its own merits despite that dreadful man! No one condemns the music of Gesualdo despite the fact that he murdered his wife or the sculptures of Cellini who was also a murderer and rather unsavoury character. Nor was Beethoven a model of good character - requesting that Zmeskall acquire him a deformed servant so he would be able to exploit his weakness!

I know that too about Cosima - just left it out to not overly complicate the matter. She was if anything an even worse antisemite than her husband. Some of the personal comments she makes in her diaries are simply awful to read. There was also I believe a poet named Francois Villon who was an out-and-out criminal. I think the painter Carravagio was also a part-time criminal, unless I am misremembering. Picasso was perfectly awful as a husband and father. And others. I think some great artists are compelled to be very selfish in order to nurture their creativity. To find examples of altruism and humanism, it would be better to look elsewhere than the arts, no matter how much their work proclaims their universality. But even with all this said, Wagner remains a corker. Notwithstanding, I am devouring his output.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
But even with all this said, Wagner remains a corker. Notwithstanding, I am devouring his output.

I think you are right - we must be able to distinguish the music from the man! Solti was of course Jewish, but he was also a great Wagner conductor! I myself can't get away from Rossini's view of Wagner - the music is simply far too longwinded for me and too nationalistic, however I adore the Liebstod and Tristan Prelude. The prelude to Parsifal is also a favourite.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Peter:
Nor was Beethoven a model of good character - requesting that Zmeskall acquire him a deformed servant so he would be able to exploit his weakness!

It occurs to me that I was being rather unkind to Beethoven mentioning this lapse of his in the same breath as the heinous crimes of Cellini and Gesualdo! After all Beethoven was probably justifiably in a foul temper over one of his servants when he wrote that letter!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think you are right - we must be able to distinguish the music from the man! Solti was of course Jewish, but he was also a great Wagner conductor! I myself can't get away from Rossini's view of Wagner - the music is simply far too longwinded for me and too nationalistic, however I adore the Liebstod and Tristan Prelude. The prelude to Parsifal is also a favourite.

You might also sample the Parsifal Good Friday music on my new thread 'Some Wagner Tracks.' I labored at this comparing versions, ripping and combining tracks and uploading for several hours yesterday, and it is now buried down the list with zero replies. The travails of the true artiste will never cease! Wagner is still conspired against by cabals as in his lifetime! Would it be permissible to put up flashing banner ads here?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Would it be permissible to put up flashing banner ads here?

You can place graphics in these boxes, if you have the know-how! Not sure about Wagner ads though - Chris might have an auto-reject function in the programming!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin