Dream concert

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Although quoted dates vary, in several references I find that the Second Symphony was finished BEFORE the Heiligenstadt testament was written, although they both date from 1802. Although this may be a quibble, it can shed light on the topic here, emotion expressed in music.

It's hard to believe that the 2nd Symphony was written at such a crisis time in Beethoven's life. It's so uplifting and 'happy'. I believe this is one time where he did not wear his heart on his sleeve and show his true emotions like with so many other compositions where you can read what was going on with his feelings through his music.

Is it possible that the Third Symphony, written in 1803, represents Beethoven's true artistic reaction to his deafness, with its themes of heroism and fortitude? And its expansion of the symphonic form into a large philosophic structure. It is exactly here that music may be said to have passed into a new world, and perhaps largely as a result of the composer's struggle with his affliction.

[/B][/QUOTE]

This is certainly true with The Eroica. I think with a lot of his music you can 'hear' his struggle with his deafness among other difficult times which were occuring in his life at the time he was writing certain music. Unlike other composers where you haven't a clue what was happening in their lives when they were composing.

Joy

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
As to Beethoven expressing his inner feelings in his music, I don't hear much of that in the 2nd Symphony dating from the same year as the Heiligenstadt testament. No Classical composer (and I certainly include Beethoven in that) ever wallowed in the self-pity that you find in Tchaikovsky's Pathetique for example (had to say it even though I'm fond of the work!)

Peter,
No, not as early as that. The 2nd is a delightful symphony, and very typical of classical style, IMHO, in that you cannot really hear the crises that were going on in B's life at the time of its compositon, much like the Mozart example that I used earlier. The 3rd was a watershed moment in B's career, when he simultaneously perfected a new style, and began to invest the music with HIMSELF. I can't really say what it is that is driving him, whether it be his deafness, or his reaction to the political turmoil of the times, or something else altogether (I suspect he could have used a woman's influence, but then we would have missed out ;-)). I will go on record as saying that even though I don't believe that B was the progenitor of romanticism in music, he nonetheless opened the door for those following to take music to different places than it had been. One of the things I most appreciate about B's music is its timelessness - it could have been written yesterday (his post-classical output, that is) or 200 years ago, and it still sounds fresh if performed by someone with talent and sensitivity. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
....No Classical composer (and I certainly include Beethoven in that) ever wallowed in the self-pity that you find in Tchaikovsky's Pathetique for example (had to say it even though I'm fond of the work!)

Peter,
Oh, I forgot, and I am fond of Tchaikovsky also, not just #6, but esp. #5, and all his chamber works (so few, alas!). His Sextet for Strings, Souvenir of Florence, is, in a word, bitchin'. (no I didn't get that from the American Record Guide, but I did live in California for a while. Sorry ;-))
Regards again, Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
This is certainly true with The Eroica. I think with a lot of his music you can 'hear' his struggle with his deafness among other difficult times which were occuring in his life at the time he was writing certain music. Unlike other composers where you haven't a clue what was happening in their lives when they were composing.

Joy

I'm not convinced by this! Who would guess when listening to the 2nd Symphony or the Eroica for that matter that here was a man in total despair and on the verge of suicide? Contrast those works with Tchaikovsy's 4th or 6th Symphonies (surely the finale is the gloomiest and most despondent thing in all music!) - Listen to any Mahler symphony and you soon understand why he was a patient of Freud, but no one would guess that Beethoven was deaf or unhappy simply by listening to his music.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:


One of the things I most appreciate about B's music is its timelessness - it could have been written yesterday (his post-classical output, that is) or 200 years ago, and it still sounds fresh if performed by someone with talent and sensitivity. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.

Regards, Gurn

You are not wrong, Gurn. I have always thought of Beethoven's music as being fresh and timeless. Some of it does appear like it could have been written more recently. Maybe that's why his music lives on and is so popular, it never seems to be 'old and dated'.

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not convinced by this! Who would guess when listening to the 2nd Symphony or the Eroica for that matter that here was a man in total despair and on the verge of suicide? Contrast those works with Tchaikovsy's 4th or 6th Symphonies (surely the finale is the gloomiest and most despondent thing in all music!) - Listen to any Mahler symphony and you soon understand why he was a patient of Freud, but no one would guess that Beethoven was deaf or unhappy simply by listening to his music.

I disagree. I didn't say all of his music you could feel his emotions but some of it surely. I did say you couldn't tell he was in the throws of despair listening to his 2nd Symphony. I still believe you can hear certain emotions that were going on in his life, through much of his music, be it good or difficult situations at any certain time.
As for other composers, of course some of them too you can read but some you can not just by listening to their music.

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 04, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
I disagree. I didn't say all of his music you could feel his emotions but some of it surely. I did say you couldn't tell he was in the throws of despair listening to his 2nd Symphony. I still believe you can hear certain emotions that were going on in his life, through much of his music, be it good or difficult situations at any certain time.
As for other composers, of course some of them too you can read but some you can not just by listening to their music.

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 04, 2003).]

I suggest when Beethoven was at his most despondent, far from composing epics, he simply refrained from composing at all!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
[B]
(I suspect he could have used a woman's influence, but then we would have missed out ;-)). .
]

A wife could have been a great asset to Beethoven's life and work ,she could have coped with all the domestic not to mention the practical business of keeping Beethoven clean warm dry and fed .His marriage plans failed because he believed in romantic love. He deserved better than Julia,Bettina or Therese,He WAS Beethoven after all.
He needed a partner in the worst way if you ask me .I refuse to read another description of his death bed squalor.It is so disheartening and could have been so different for him with a faithful loving wife by his side .

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I disagree. I didn't say all of his music you could feel his emotions but some of it surely. I did say you couldn't tell he was in the throws of despair listening to his 2nd Symphony. I still believe you can hear certain emotions that were going on in his life, through much of his music, be it good or difficult situations at any certain time.
As for other composers, of course some of them too you can read but some you can not just by listening to their music.

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 04, 2003).]

Well I disagree also!! Yes Beethoven expresses everything in his music, but it doesn't follow that if he is expressing say joy (!!) it is HIS joy - it is simply joy itself. Surely the finale of the 9th is an example of this. Beethoven's life was quite tragic and sad from a personal point of view, but that is not the overall impression gained from the music. He does express tragedy and sadness but it isn't his personal sadness - it is just the emotion of sadness. Mahler actually incorporated his irregular heartbeat into his 9th or 10th (I can't remember which) - Tchaikovsky described his 6th as being a tragic autobiography - these composers definitely were expressing their personal views and feelings in music - this is a major difference between Classical and Romantic composers.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

I agree with you Peter.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I disagree also!! Yes Beethoven expresses everything in his music, but it doesn't follow that if he is expressing say joy (!!) it is HIS joy - it is simply joy itself. Surely the finale of the 9th is an example of this. Beethoven's life was quite tragic and sad from a personal point of view, but that is not the overall impression gained from the music. He does express tragedy and sadness but it isn't his personal sadness - it is just the emotion of sadness. Mahler actually incorporated his irregular heartbeat into his 9th or 10th (I can't remember which) - Tchaikovsky described his 6th as being a tragic autobiography - these composers definitely were expressing their personal views and feelings in music - this is a major difference between Classical and Romantic composers.

Peter,
Well, I agree with you too, at least somewhat. My original statement that started this frew-fraw was that pre-B composers didn't express THEIR OWN emotions in their music, and that in his mature music B does. I have been thinking about this topic since then, along with other things that people have been saying that are tangentially related to it, and what I now think is that some of the genius of the man is that he allows the LISTENER to bring his own emotions to the table with the music. The music becomes a mirror for your own emotions, which you may or may not attribute to B. When I'm happy the rolicking parts of Eroica speak to me, when I'm upset, the Marche Funebre feels like a dirge. These are not B's emotions, they are mine. Anyway, a lot of later romantic music is much more suffused with the composer's own feelings, perhaps trying to force us to feel as he does. Perhaps that is why it feels artificial to many people. For my money, the only true late Romanticist to avoid this trap is Dvorak, who is brilliant in any time period, and who doesn't try to force anything on you. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I suggest when Beethoven was at his most despondent, far from composing epics, he simply refrained from composing at all!

Rod,
Quite so. The period from 1814 - 1819 saw very little output, and corresponded to the lowest point in B's life. I'm pretty sure he was thinking about it the whole time though.
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
A wife could have been a great asset to Beethoven's life and work ,she could have coped with all the domestic not to mention the practical business of keeping Beethoven clean warm dry and fed .His marriage plans failed because he believed in romantic love. He deserved better than Julia,Bettina or Therese,He WAS Beethoven after all.
He needed a partner in the worst way if you ask me .I refuse to read another description of his death bed squalor.It is so disheartening and could have been so different for him with a faithful loving wife by his side .

spaceray,
So true! Even Constanze Mozart was better than nothing at all, Wolfgang was all in all much better off than B was in that regard. My suspicion is that B's misogyny was terminal! ;-)
Regards, Gurn

[Gurn Blanston]

By the way, just so as not to lose the thread altogether, how about the Schuppanzigh Quartet and the first performance of the c# Quartet Op 131. Sure would have liked to be sitting in the front row!
Gurn

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
spaceray,
So true! Even Constanze Mozart was better than nothing at all, Wolfgang was all in all much better off than B was in that regard. My suspicion is that B's misogyny was terminal! ;-)
Regards, Gurn

I believe it is a great mistake to label Beethoven a misogynist ,clearly there were some women in his life whom he deeply loved,he adored his mother and he was crazy about Julia and there was some mystery Madam X .I just think it would have been a good idea for Beethoven to marry some nice woman from church who could HELP him.He had been in love a lot in his youth ,he didn't need that ,he needed a partner to share the burden.
In your words I could be wrong about this but I don't think so.