Dream concert

[John Rasmussen]

Ooooh!! Here's ONE of my dream concerts:

Before intermission: Coriolan overture and Beethoven's Triple Concerto. William Kapell or Martha Argerich, Zino Francescatti or Sarah Chang, and Pablo Casals or Mstislav Rostropovich as soloists. Fritz Reiner conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra.

After intermission: The Ninth, with Bruno Walter on the podium (just for a change; I'm sure Reiner would do superbly too). Soloists: Lucia Popp, Janet Baker, Peter Schreier, and Martti Talvela. Chorus from the Vienna Staatsoper.

Alternately: Mahler's Eighth, again with Walter leading the Philadelphia. Soloists: Lucia Popp, Leontyne Price, Dawn Upshaw, Janet Baker, Gladys Swarthout, Placido Domingo, Leonard Warren, and Martti Talvela. First chorus Vienna Staatsoper; second chorus Westminster Choir.

Another alternate: Reiner/Philadelphia in The Rite of Spring and Varese's Ameriques. Eeeeeeyowww!

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited December 04, 2002).]

[John Rasmussen]

Oh, and here's another dream, that Rod won't like: to hear Johann Sebastian Bach play ANYTHING on the organ that's in the Leipzig Thomaskirche now.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I haven't read Hockney's book but have read a few articles on it and am familiar with his main arguments. The article you mention seems to be having internet contention today, as I can't pull it up. So some of the themes and artists I mention below may not be the ones he stresses.

I think that Hockney is probably correct in that some artists, perhaps many, used the camera obscura and other technical aids to help them draw, and that this has largely been ignored or downplayed by art historians until now. But accurate drawing is only one tool of an artist, as perhaps mastery of notes, scales, keys, transposing, harmony, etc. are the tools of a composer. What does one then do with it? There are many good pianists but few great composers, just as there are many artists who can draw well but few great painters or sculptors.

Leaving modern art aside completely, among many old masters accurate representation of nature was only a beginning point for the personality and imagination of the creator. Some of these are the ancient Greek sculptors, Michelangelo, Titian, Giorgione, Bellini, Piero della Francesca, Rembrandt, Tintoretto, the Mannerists, El Greco, Hals, Watteau, Ingres, Delacroix, etc., etc.

Great artists who were much more faithful to everyday reality as we experience it, and who may have used the camera obscura and other technical aids extensively, include Vermeer, Holbein and some others. Even with these artists however, there are always very strong factors of personal expression and of design, selection, choice, light, color, etc. which lift them far above their thousands of capable or mediocre contemporaries.

So I am more or less saying, so what? From the standpoint of art history, very interesting. As a guide to creating or explaining creation, not that important. Fidelio with a different medicore libretto would probably still be Fidelio.

Yes Chaszz,I agree,so what.Still I'm not sure why some art historians are all steamed up about it,it seems to me the camera obscura was more about proportion,the painter was still obliged to put paint on the canvas.
Do you happen to know the work of Boston artist Chalky Frenn ? You are a painter yourself aren't you?

[Andrea]

I'm glad to see that there is someone else here who likes Lucia Popp. She is my favorite "Königin der Nacht" from Mozart's Die Zauberflöte.

[Peter]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Oh, and here's another dream, that Rod won't like: to hear Johann Sebastian Bach play ANYTHING on the organ that's in the Leipzig Thomaskirche now.

Or how about Beethoven playing Op.106 on a Steinway!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Oh, and here's another dream, that Rod won't like: to hear Johann Sebastian Bach play ANYTHING on the organ that's in the Leipzig Thomaskirche now.

That would, indeed, be a real treat. I've often wished that I could hear Anton Bruckner play the organ. He may well have been one of the greatest organists of the 19th Century.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Yes Chaszz,I agree,so what.Still I'm not sure why some art historians are all steamed up about it,it seems to me the camera obscura was more about proportion,the painter was still obliged to put paint on the canvas.
Do you happen to know the work of Boston artist Chalky Frenn ? You are a painter yourself aren't you?

Yes, I am a painter. I'm not familiar with Chalky Frenn.

[spaceray]

I found Chalky Frenn's art on Sotheby's before they moved the auction to ebay.I have had no sucess trying to find anything biographical about this artist except that he is from Boston.Nevertheless he paints in the manner of Holbien but with a twist of iconoclasm.Some of his post 9/11 work is quite stunning for its amazing quality and content.his version of Der tote Heiland im Grab(1521) as a statement of the frailty of humanity really knocked me out.All of his paintings on this theme sold out at astronomical prices(for an emerging artist)on the Sotheby's auction and I have never seen his work again for sale there or anywhere on the internet.I've since wondered if I had his name wrong (I'm pretty sure it's right)and why he seems to have disappeared.I don't even know that he is a he.
Do you show your pictures?

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:
Or how about Beethoven playing Op.106 on a Steinway!

Or (hehe) how about Beethoven playing ANYTHING (could even be four-hands with Schubert or piano duet with him, that one in F minor would be just great) in a Graf?

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by spaceray:
[Do you show your pictures?[/B]

Not yet.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Or (hehe) how about Beethoven playing ANYTHING (could even be four-hands with Schubert or piano duet with him, that one in F minor would be just great) in a Graf?

Beethoven playing anything indeed! I'll pay to see this concert!!

Joy

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Peter:
Or how about Beethoven playing Op.106 on a Steinway!

Nahh. For Op.106 he would really need a Boesendorfer!

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

That would, indeed, be a real treat. I've often wished that I could hear Anton Bruckner play the organ. He may well have been one of the greatest organists of the 19th Century.

Yes! I too have heard he was legendary. Maybe an organ rendition of the (completed) Ninth Symphony!!!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Beethoven playing anything indeed! I'll pay to see this concert!!

Joy

I'd pay to see Beethoven practising scales or playing chopsticks! Instead my pupils pay me to hear their scales!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

That would, indeed, be a real treat. I've often wished that I could hear Anton Bruckner play the organ. He may well have been one of the greatest organists of the 19th Century.

Saint-saens was described as an even greater organist than pianist - I think I'm right in saying he could play all of the Beethoven 32 sonatas from memory at age 10!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 06, 2002).]