Dream concert

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Peter,
Well, I agree with you too, at least somewhat. My original statement that started this frew-fraw was that pre-B composers didn't express THEIR OWN emotions in their music, and that in his mature music B does. I have been thinking about this topic since then, along with other things that people have been saying that are tangentially related to it, and what I now think is that some of the genius of the man is that he allows the LISTENER to bring his own emotions to the table with the music. The music becomes a mirror for your own emotions, which you may or may not attribute to B. When I'm happy the rolicking parts of Eroica speak to me, when I'm upset, the Marche Funebre feels like a dirge. These are not B's emotions, they are mine. Anyway, a lot of later romantic music is much more suffused with the composer's own feelings, perhaps trying to force us to feel as he does. Perhaps that is why it feels artificial to many people. For my money, the only true late Romanticist to avoid this trap is Dvorak, who is brilliant in any time period, and who doesn't try to force anything on you. That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

I think this is so and the Romantic era was to my mind an emotionally unhealthy age - it doesn't mean I don't like a good deal of the music, only that I recognise it as a medium for self-indulgence and often downright self pity! I'm pleased you mentioned the funeral march from the Eroica - it is simply that - a funeral march and we recognise it as such -it is no reflection of Beethoven's own emotions or attitudes towards death. Contrast it with any by Mahler (I think there is one in nearly every Symphony he wrote) and you realise that in his case it is not just a funeral march but a reflection of his own obsession with death.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I believe it is a great mistake to label Beethoven a misogynist ,clearly there were some women in his life whom he deeply loved,he adored his mother and he was crazy about Julia and there was some mystery Madam X .I just think it would have been a good idea for Beethoven to marry some nice woman from church who could HELP him.He had been in love a lot in his youth ,he didn't need that ,he needed a partner to share the burden.
In your words I could be wrong about this but I don't think so.

spaceray,
It's true that B developed strong attachments to certain women, but since they were always women he couldn't have due to circumstance (they were married) or class (they were nobility) it seems to me that he never undertook a realistic search for a mate. And perhaps his attitude was such that he put women off. After all, there was still some amount of choice available to women, perticularly if they were widows. Perhaps misogyny is the wrong word here, but there was certainly something in his character that drove him away from a true pursuit of a wife, since it was not impossible for a man to marry if he really wanted to and had a willingness to conform to the norms of society at least to the point of becoming marriageable. I suggest that he didn't, whether subconsciously or otherwise. That's just my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I disagree also!! Yes Beethoven expresses everything in his music, but it doesn't follow that if he is expressing say joy (!!) it is HIS joy - it is simply joy itself. Surely the finale of the 9th is an example of this. Beethoven's life was quite tragic and sad from a personal point of view, but that is not the overall impression gained from the music. He does express tragedy and sadness but it isn't his personal sadness - it is just the emotion of sadness. Mahler actually incorporated his irregular heartbeat into his 9th or 10th (I can't remember which) - Tchaikovsky described his 6th as being a tragic autobiography - these composers definitely were expressing their personal views and feelings in music - this is a major difference between Classical and Romantic composers.

In respect to this idea, what do you think of the unbridled emotion of the Op. 57? Perhaps in none of his other works do I come across such pure raw emotional outbursts as this. And this was written (published) shortly after the Eroica, judging from the opus number during a great emotional difficulty with his deafness.

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I agree with you Peter.

You don't believe that Beethoven ever ecpressed his true emotions with at least some of his works?

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I disagree also!! Yes Beethoven expresses everything in his music, but it doesn't follow that if he is expressing say joy (!!) it is HIS joy - it is simply joy itself. Surely the finale of the 9th is an example of this. Beethoven's life was quite tragic and sad from a personal point of view, but that is not the overall impression gained from the music. He does express tragedy and sadness but it isn't his personal sadness - it is just the emotion of sadness. Mahler actually incorporated his irregular heartbeat into his 9th or 10th (I can't remember which) - Tchaikovsky described his 6th as being a tragic autobiography - these composers definitely were expressing their personal views and feelings in music - this is a major difference between Classical and Romantic composers.

One thing is I'm surprised you used 'Ode to Joy' as your example. Everyone knows what this music was all about and it wasn't his own personal Joy. I would never have used that as an example. Again, I never said all of his music but some expresses his own emotions. How many times have I read about certain situations in his life and that his next piece of music would express that emotion? Wasn't 'The Moonlight' written out of some despair? Wasn't 'The Waldstein' some kind of an acceptance of his handicap situation and he accepted it with triumph?
That's what I've heard all these years anyway. I've heard of Mahler incorporating his own heartbeat into one of his works. Now here was a man who really was obseesd with his own death, I guess he had reason to be.
Anyway, I'm not going to 'argue' this fact anymore. It seems everyone has their own opinion and that's the way it should be. Case closed.

Joy

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Joy:
You don't believe that Beethoven ever ecpressed his true emotions with at least some of his works?

Joy

I agree with Peter that Beethoven expressed a`musical interpretation of joy,but not nessesarily his(LVB"S) joy.

[Rod]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I agree with Peter that Beethoven expressed a`musical interpretation of joy,but not nessesarily his(LVB"S) joy.

I think that the selections from the Ode used by Beethoven may have had some personal significance but, as always with a great artiste, the end product is delivered in a universal manner.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think that the selections from the Ode used by Beethoven may have had some personal significance but, as always with a great artiste, the end product is delivered in a universal manner.

Granted, before the Romantic era the expression of the artist's own emotion was not considered the primary attribute of a work of art. But I think everyone would grant that pre-Romantic music expresses emotion. Since artistic inspiration comes to a great extent from the unconscious or, if you prefer, the non-rational side of human nature, how could a composer distinguish between his "own" emotion and "universal" emotion when having inspiration? Hearing, for instance, the pitiful sadness in some of Mozart's piano concertos, both the allegros and the slow movements, I can't believe that he didn't FEEL it personally. How can an artist who has a beautiful idea know whether the joy or sadness he feels is personal, or universal? I think you guys are splitting hairs.

[Joy]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I agree with Peter that Beethoven expressed a`musical interpretation of joy,but not nessesarily his(LVB"S) joy.

I agree also with this piece of music, his 'Ode to Joy', that it was more universal than personal, but I am referring to some of his other works.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 06, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Granted, before the Romantic era the expression of the artist's own emotion was not considered the primary attribute of a work of art. But I think everyone would grant that pre-Romantic music expresses emotion. Since artistic inspiration comes to a great extent from the unconscious or, if you prefer, the non-rational side of human nature, how could a composer distinguish between his "own" emotion and "universal" emotion when having inspiration? Hearing, for instance, the pitiful sadness in some of Mozart's piano concertos, both the allegros and the slow movements, I can't believe that he didn't FEEL it personally. How can an artist who has a beautiful idea know whether the joy or sadness he feels is personal, or universal? I think you guys are splitting hairs.

Chaszz,
Truly, I think you are correct, and I go back to my original statement of some days ago which was that the emotion inherent in the music is merely a reflection of the emotion brought to the piece by the listener, not that injected by the composer, as with some Romantic era works. Whether this is what is being called 'universal' emotion, I don't know, but I believe it is MY emotion when I listen, my reaction to the music, that is what I feel at the time, not B's (or M's) emotion while composing it. That's just my opinion...
Regards, Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Truly, I think you are correct, and I go back to my original statement of some days ago which was that the emotion inherent in the music is merely a reflection of the emotion brought to the piece by the listener, not that injected by the composer, as with some Romantic era works. Whether this is what is being called 'universal' emotion, I don't know, but I believe it is MY emotion when I listen, my reaction to the music, that is what I feel at the time, not B's (or M's) emotion while composing it. That's just my opinion...
Regards, Gurn

Well, I wasn't restricting the ability to appeal 'universally' in art to Beethoven alone, it is a delicate balance between the heart and the mind. But I believe in Romantic times especially the balance was lost as the mind was all but thrown out of the window.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I wasn't restricting the ability to appeal 'universally' in art to Beethoven alone, it is a delicate balance between the heart and the mind. But I believe in Romantic times especially the balance was lost as the mind was all but thrown out of the window.

Indeed! The Classical period was ALL about balance. And the Romantic is the antithesis.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I wasn't restricting the ability to appeal 'universally' in art to Beethoven alone, it is a delicate balance between the heart and the mind. But I believe in Romantic times especially the balance was lost as the mind was all but thrown out of the window.

The mind was not thrown out the window. Brahms kept pretty closely to classical structures in many respects. Other composers adhered more to programs, which were stories or philosophical structures, or both, that the music explicated. Although this may be something of an extra-musical dimension applied to music, it is certainly not mindless. And it was originated (if I'm not wrong) or at least greatly advanced, by none other than Beethoven himself.

As far as balance, art has always swung back and forth between romantic and classical phases, and excess in one usually produces a reaction to the other side. Visual art history is full of this kind of pendulum swing, going right back to the classic Greek art of the 5th century BC that was succeeded by a baroque Hellenistic age. What can be seen as the excesses of Romantic music were soon enough countered by the neoclassicism of much 20th century music.

As for myself, I find Wagner so overhelmingly great I don't care what category he is in. And he is ANYTHING but mindless.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:


As for myself, I find Wagner so overhelmingly great I don't care what category he is in. And he is ANYTHING but mindless.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion Chaszz! I subjected myself to the torture of listening to Siegfried on BBC Radio 3 over the holidays, or at least the 2nd act - cursed be the ears that heard!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 07, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, you are entitled to your opinion Chaszz! I subjected myself to the torture of listening to Siegfried on BBC Radio 3 over the holidays, or at least the 2nd act - cursed be the ears that heard!

Glad to see you're trying, Rod. Isn't that the act that contains that wonderful woodbird section?