Leeds Piano Competition.

[Peter]

Infuriatingly I've lost my Czerny edition of the 48, so I can't check the facts on this, but I seem to recall Czerny claiming that his edition gave an indication of B's performance of the preludes and fugues.I agree Beethoven cannot be held responsible for Czerny's efforts.Interesting about B's prelude and fugue in Fmin, but not surprising as Neefe had introduced B to Bach's 48 at an early age. Quite how much of Bach's music Beethoven was familiar with, I'm not sure - the Bmin Mass for sure, but how many of the Cantatas or Concertos were known to him ?

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'Man know thyself'

[Tim]

I thought you guys mught be interested to know that my current teacher won the Leeds Piano competition. His name is Artur Pizarro. He's SO amazing.

Tim.

[Tim]

Also, Ashley Wass -one of this years finalists- went to Chetham's school of music in Manchester... as I did.

Artur said that he thought the level of competition this year was bad compared to the year he won. The problem with Leeds -he says- is that they always have a winner. In the Chopin and Tchaikovsky pc's, they only have a winner if the best player is good enough. This is a better system in my opinion because with Leeds, pianists such as this years winner are unfairly compared with greats such as Murray Perahia, Radu Lupu, and Artur Pizarro.

Tim.

[Tim]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well how many people these days possess a Harpsichord or a Fortepiano? Are you suggesting that the wonderful Scarlatti Sonatas or Bach Preludes and Fugues should be denied to Piano students today ? Beethoven was himself guilty of the 'crime' of playing Bach's keyboard music on the Fortepiano. As far as I am aware he did not possess a harpsichord in order that he could perform Bach or Handel authentically.Nor anywhere is there any evidence that he felt his early works or those of Mozart should be performed on 18th century Fortepianos.

OK. Once and for all, I can conclusively say (with evidence) that Beethoven would have prefered his music played on a modern piano instead of the old fortepianos. The evidence for this can be found in one of the symphonies (I know not which one yet, but I will find out exact bar numbers and movements from my teacher soon...).

There is a solo in one movement which is played on the horn. When it comes back later on in the piece, the bassoon plays this tune in a different key. In Beethoven's day, it was impossible for this to be played on the horn because it didn't have the valves. Beethoven wrote over the music though, that when valves were invented in the future, he wanted this solo to be put back onto the horn.

On this evidence, I don't think it is possible to say that:

A.) Beethoven would have prefered instruments in the state they are in today

and

B.) Beethoven would have prefered the fortepiano to the modern piano for his own pieces.

Do you really think that he felt it was ideal that he had to have people to pick the hammers out of the strings while he was playing?! It is ridiculous to say that this was part of the music.

This point proves that Beethoven WAS a forward looking compoer in terms of instruments and if alive today, would not have his music played on the old fashioned instruments.

Tim.

PS. I am not saying that period recordings are of no use as it is still interesting to listen to them to hear what B's music would have originally sounded like.

[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 11-20-2000).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Tim:
OK. Once and for all, I can conclusively say (with evidence) that Beethoven would have prefered his music played on a modern piano instead of the old fortepianos. The evidence for this can be found in one of the symphonies (I know not which one yet, but I will find out exact bar numbers and movements from my teacher soon...).

There is a solo in one movement which is played on the horn. When it comes back later on in the piece, the bassoon plays this tune in a different key. In Beethoven's day, it was impossible for this to be played on the horn because it didn't have the valves. Beethoven wrote over the music though, that when valves were invented in the future, he wanted this solo to be put back onto the horn.

On this evidence, I don't think it is possible to say that:

A.) Beethoven would have prefered instruments in the state they are in today

and

B.) Beethoven would have prefered the fortepiano to the modern piano for his own pieces.

Do you really think that he felt it was ideal that he had to have people to pick the hammers out of the strings while he was playing?! It is ridiculous to say that this was part of the music.

This point proves that Beethoven WAS a forward looking compoer in terms of instruments and if alive today, would not have his music played on the old fashioned instruments.

Tim.

PS. I am not saying that period recordings are of no use as it is still interesting to listen to them to hear what B's music would have originally sounded like.

[This message has been edited by Tim (edited 11-20-2000).]

It has been commented before about a passage(s?) for the horn in the 9th Symphony that imply the use of a valve horn. Well I can say that there were some primitive designs of such a nature in existance in B's time, of which B may have become aware. Perhaps B may have known the horn player in the premiere may have had such an instrument. On the other hand, I'm no expert in horn manufacture, but someone may know if they ever produced different Natural horns for different keys? Either way I suggest B composed such notes because he knew it was possible for them to be played at that time. If it were impossible I suggest he dodn't compose them!

Regarding the fortepiano, my point was never what he would have thought of the modern instrument, but rather which instrument did he compose for. Broken stings and mechanics is a problem of manufacture, not sound . I'm sure B would have liked a piano that never broke in his tim, but later Viennese-actioned pianos were much stronger than the early models. I could point out 1000 cases where B's keyboard writing was clearly done bearing the nuances of the Viennese pianos in mind, and not some fantasy instrument with a totally different tone, level of decay, pitch, volume, tuning, keyboard span etc etc. Some of his effects are impossible to replicate on the modern instrument. How do you account for that?

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Tim:
Also, Ashley Wass -one of this years finalists- went to Chetham's school of music in Manchester... as I did.

Artur said that he thought the level of competition this year was bad compared to the year he won. The problem with Leeds -he says- is that they always have a winner. In the Chopin and Tchaikovsky pc's, they only have a winner if the best player is good enough. This is a better system in my opinion because with Leeds, pianists such as this years winner are unfairly compared with greats such as Murray Perahia, Radu Lupu, and Artur Pizarro.

Tim.

My point was that the Leeds isn't really a universal pianist competition in the first place, but rather a competition for pianists who will need to play in the late-C19th/C20th manner if they want to win, which effectively rules out a lot of piano music (that is, if you want it heard in the correct manner, worthy of a 'great'!).

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Tim]

Originally posted by Rod:

Regarding the fortepiano, my point was never what he would have thought of the modern instrument, but rather which instrument did he compose for. Broken stings and mechanics is a problem of manufacture, not sound . I'm sure B would have liked a piano that never broke in his tim, but later Viennese-actioned pianos were much stronger than the early models. I could point out 1000 cases where B's keyboard writing was clearly done bearing the nuances of the Viennese pianos in mind, and not some fantasy instrument with a totally different tone, level of decay, pitch, volume, tuning, keyboard span etc etc. Some of his effects are impossible to replicate on the modern instrument. How do you account for that?

Rod

I am not aware of any effects that can not be reproduced on the modern grand. I admit that the sound is different -less intimate- but I think this enhances much of his keyboard repertoire.

Show me a few of these thousand examples that you have! I am genuinly interested to know as it can help me in interpretation.

Tim.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Tim:
I am not aware of any effects that can not be reproduced on the modern grand. I admit that the sound is different -less intimate- but I think this enhances much of his keyboard repertoire.

Show me a few of these thousand examples that you have! I am genuinly interested to know as it can help me in interpretation.

Tim.

The trouble is, a lot of B's piano music IS intimate and delicate, and on the modern intstrument it sounds like you're using a bulldozer to fill a plant pot! Regarding your interpretation, unless you are an fp player what would be the point of me discussing it, you already seem to be aware of the somewhat insensitive nature of the pf. If you have a video (preferably a stereo one) I could send you (and anyone else who is interested) a demo of fp recordings to illustrate my point better than I can describe it. Why video? Because its the only recording media I have, and not a bad one at that!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin