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**Sorrano** · 12-23-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
From what I can gather his reputation is pretty much American based - he was heavily involved with experimental modern music. He certainly hasn't achieved the internationalism or fame that Beethoven did in his lifetime let alone today so I see little to compare the two men.

Varese's impact has been nominal here. Perhaps more in terms of novelty. While Ives is regarded in a similar way his music had a much greater impact for some reason. But I don't suppose either had much impact outside the U.S.

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-24-2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by spaceray:
I think Beethoven would have been Beethoven what ever age he might have been born into,he did have the tools to be great! do you think he would have withered on the vine if he had been born any other time or place he was?He struggled ,suffered and was insufferable ,felt love and joy and compassion,he had faith and doubts.Did I leave anything out?I think how lucky we are that he sat down at the keyboard and didn't become a brilliant doctor ,scientist,philosopher polititian or
painter.

Well, I actually DO think he would have been different enough for us to not recognize him as we do today. Maybe greater, maybe lesser, who can say? What I AM saying is that the blend between B and his environment is what made him, and that if you change him OR you change his environment, then there is no telling what the result may have been. How do we know, for instance, that there has not existed a person who had musical talent that far outstripped anyone we know about, but due to circumstances was unable to express those ideas. The answer is, we don't. IMHO, we need to be glad that B was born when and where he was, and that he lived as long as he did, in whatever circumstances, so that he left the legacy that we love today. That's my opinion, I might be wrong.
Gurn

**margaret hopkins** · 12-24-2002, 07:19 PM

TIME - TRAVEL To Gurn, Your opinion is not wrong gurn, but valued. It is because Beethovens awsome phenomenon has touched our lives in such a profound way that it is indescribable. Through his creations he has enlightened us and shown us Truth and Beauty and knowledge, and from that we can draw comfort. AMEN. MARGARET.

**spaceray** · 12-24-2002, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Well, I actually DO think he would have been different enough for us to not recognize him as we do today. Maybe greater, maybe lesser, who can say? What I AM saying is that the blend between B and his environment is what made him, and that if you change him OR you change his environment, then there is no telling what the result may have been. How do we know, for instance, that there has not existed a person who had musical talent that far outstripped anyone we know about, but due to circumstances was unable to express those ideas. The answer is, we don't. IMHO, we need to be glad that B was born when and where he was, and that he lived as long as he did, in whatever circumstances, so that he left the legacy that we love today. That's my opinion, I might be wrong.
Gurn

I thought a lot about this last night(listening to the piano sonatas)I have to agree with what you say ,Beethoven and his environment etc. I do know a bass whose awesome talent as a musician is only bettered by his skill as a surgeon and for some reason he prefers the latter to the former.Still the idea of putting Beethoven in a time(or profession) other than his really gave me pause for thought.

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-25-2002, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by spaceray:
I thought a lot about this last night(listening to the piano sonatas)I have to agree with what you say ,Beethoven and his environment etc. I do know a bass whose awesome talent as a musician is only bettered by his skill as a surgeon and for some reason he prefers the latter to the former.Still the idea of putting Beethoven in a time(or profession) other than his really gave me pause for thought.

Spaceray,
Pause, indeed. Every time I listen to even the simplest tune the master penned (if there is such a thing!), I am grateful that he not only had the means to express his genius, but that we are better equiped than any of our predecessors to get to hear it, virtually at will. What a gift! Truly, this minute, it's Christmas Eve and I am actually listening to the complete incidental music from The Nutcracker, the very fact that I can do that at will is boggling. Ain't life grand?!?!
Happy Holidays, Gurn

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-25-2002, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by margaret hopkins:
TIME - TRAVEL To Gurn, Your opinion is not wrong gurn, but valued. It is because Beethovens awsome phenomenon has touched our lives in such a profound way that it is indescribable. Through his creations he has enlightened us and shown us Truth and Beauty and knowledge, and from that we can draw comfort. AMEN. MARGARET.

Margaret,
Thank you. I agree, no one's opinion is wrong, that's why it is just an opinion. As it happens, the original thread was on a subject that I have given a lot of thought to. Although I am much more of a philosopher than a spiritualist, I can certainly agree with your outlook that we have been blessed with such tremendous music to help us to see the world more clearly, although through the eyes of another. But such another! The fact that over 200 years later he can still provoke such deep feelings on an otherwise pretty bleak world outlook is testment to the power that is wielded by genius.
Happy Holiday, Gurn

**Andrea** · 12-25-2002, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Spaceray,
Pause, indeed. Every time I listen to even the simplest tune the master penned (if there is such a thing!), I am grateful that he not only had the means to express his genius, but that we are better equiped than any of our predecessors to get to hear it, virtually at will. What a gift! Truly, this minute, it's Christmas Eve and I am actually listening to the complete incidental music from The Nutcracker, the very fact that I can do that at will is boggling. Ain't life grand?!?!
Happy Holidays, Gurn

I totally agree with you, Gurn. We are so lucky that we live in this day and age. We are able to listen to Beethoven's music whenever and where ever we want to; on the radio, TV, on records or CDs.

There are times though that I wish I lived here in Beethoven's time. Living in Vienna helps me only to begin to imagine what it was like to have lived here back then. Just walking into a building where he lived or where he performed a concert you are transported into the past. With the way life was back in those days maybe you would not have been lucky enough to hear any of his concerts (maybe you had no money, etc.). If I had lived near Beethoven's Heiligenstadt House back then (as I do now), I wonder if I would have been able to walk by his house and hear him composing at the fortepiano. Now that would be mind-boggling...

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-25-2002, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Andrea:
I totally agree with you, Gurn. We are so lucky that we live in this day and age. We are able to listen to Beethoven's music whenever and where ever we want to; on the radio, TV, on records or CDs.

There are times though that I wish I lived here in Beethoven's time. Living in Vienna helps me only to begin to imagine what it was like to have lived here back then. Just walking into a building where he lived or where he performed a concert you are transported into the past. With the way life was back in those days maybe you would not have been lucky enough to hear any of his concerts (maybe you had no money, etc.). If I had lived near Beethoven's Heiligenstadt House back then (as I do now), I wonder if I would have been able to walk by his house and hear him composing at the fortepiano. Now that would be mind-boggling...

Andrea,
Well, since space and time are manifestations of the same phenomenon, perhaps my envy of you, living in Vienna, and yours of Czerny, for example, living in 1810, can both be overcome! Oh, all right, mine is easier, but we just haven't thought about it hard enough to overcome the 'time's arrow' thing yet. I predict Bernhard will be first among us to do so. As long as he shares... ;-)) As for the way of life, that I'm not so sure of. We moderns would likely find it overwhelmingly primitive, given our tendencies toward creature comforts. So many of our great inventions have been oriented that way. Where would I be without my CD player...
Best Wishes on the Holiday,
Gurn

**Chaszz** · 12-26-2002, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Andrea,
Well, since space and time are manifestations of the same phenomenon, perhaps my envy of you, living in Vienna, and yours of Czerny, for example, living in 1810, can both be overcome! Oh, all right, mine is easier, but we just haven't thought about it hard enough to overcome the 'time's arrow' thing yet. I predict Bernhard will be first among us to do so. As long as he shares... ;-)) As for the way of life, that I'm not so sure of. We moderns would likely find it overwhelmingly primitive, given our tendencies toward creature comforts. So many of our great inventions have been oriented that way. Where would I be without my CD player...
Best Wishes on the Holiday,
Gurn

**Chaszz** · 12-26-2002, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I suggest we might miss modern medical science the most. Disease and death were ever-present stalkers back then and serious germ-borne illnesses which are now cured easily were sources of terror for all families. Then there would be lack of indoor bathrooms and plumbing; poor winter heating; after that perhaps the CD player would be hardest to give up. But to have Beethoven in the next street composing on the fortepiano might make up for it all!

It IS truly amazing the gift we have of being able to listen to so much great music at will. As a artist I have seen most of what there is to see, the occasional new masterpiece I discover in a museum or a book is rare (except for those I am slowly painting myself!..) As a music listener I have far more to do than I will ever have time for. I will never get to it all. (Maybe because music unfolds in time even at first listening, while a painting in a museum is grasped in a second at first viewing). Every day brings a new musical masterpiece on the radio, on the web, or on CD, or a new interpretation of an old favorite which may shed light. This really is an endless feast.

**Chaszz** · 12-26-2002, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I suggest we might miss modern medical science the most. Disease and death were ever-present stalkers back then and serious germ-borne illnesses which are now cured easily were sources of terror for all families. Then there would be lack of indoor bathrooms and plumbing; poor winter heating; after that perhaps the CD player would be hardest to give up. But to have Beethoven in the next street composing on the fortepiano might make up for it all!

It IS truly amazing the gift we have of being able to listen to so much great music at will. As a artist I have seen most of what there is to see, the occasional new masterpiece I discover in a museum or a book is rare (except for those I am slowly painting myself!..) As a music listener I have far more to do than I will ever have time for. I will never get to it all. (Maybe because music unfolds in time even at first listening, while a painting in a museum is grasped in a second at first viewing). Every day brings a new musical masterpiece on the radio, on the web, or on CD, or a new interpretation of an old favorite which may shed light. This really is an endless feast.

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-26-2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Chaszz:

Originally posted by Chaszz:

I suggest we might miss modern medical science the most. Disease and death were ever-present stalkers back then and serious germ-borne illnesses which are now cured easily were sources of terror for all families. Then there would be lack of indoor bathrooms and plumbing; poor winter heating; after that perhaps the CD player would be hardest to give up. But to have Beethoven in the next street composing on the fortepiano might make up for it all!

It IS truly amazing the gift we have of being able to listen to so much great music at will. As a artist I have seen most of what there is to see, the occasional new masterpiece I discover in a museum or a book is rare (except for those I am slowly painting myself!..) As a music listener I have far more to do than I will ever have time for. I will never get to it all. (Maybe because music unfolds in time even at first listening, while a painting in a museum is grasped in a second at first viewing). Every day brings a new musical masterpiece on the radio, on the web, or on CD, or a new interpretation of an old favorite which may shed light. This really is an endless feast.

Chaszz,
Well, yes, medical science would indeed be the worst. I was merely being facetious about the CD player, but darn it, I WOULD miss it. To point out merely one aspect of medical science, it is quite likely that Mozart would have lived a much longer life, since he likely died of an easily cured (today) illness. Who knows what he would have written, or even better to what heights he would have pushed Beethoven, as he did Haydn (who actually quit writing piano concertos after he heard Wolfgang's, BTW). Man, this time travel is confusing to such a simple man as myself, so much to think about, so little time... ;-))
Regards, Gurn

**Chaszz** · 12-26-2002, 03:48 AM

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Well, yes, medical science would indeed be the worst. I was merely being facetious about the CD player, but darn it, I WOULD miss it. To point out merely one aspect of medical science, it is quite likely that Mozart would have lived a much longer life, since he likely died of an easily cured (today) illness. Who knows what he would have written, or even better to what heights he would have pushed Beethoven, as he did Haydn (who actually quit writing piano concertos after he heard Wolfgang's, BTW). Man, this time travel is confusing to such a simple man as myself, so much to think about, so little time... ;-))
Regards, Gurn

Let's bend the mind a little more. As I said elsewhere, we have a good chance that Beethoven will be cloned as well as any other great person whose DNA is available and in good enough shape. So let's imagine Beethoven, Bach, Handel, Mozart and who you will (I will will Wagner, but others will not) having coffee together, as I said. But let's include also the likelihood that old age will be conquered in the 21st century so that these reborn geniuses will live for several hundred or a thousand years and influence each other repeatedly. Throw in Goethe to inspire them and there will be a new real golden age of German music.

Certainly Alexander Hamilton, a man of infinite organizational talent and energy, would fit right into the Bush administration. About that I'm not so sanguine. And I'm sure there will be others we will not want back, but some unbalanced obsessive will want to clone anyway....

(Sorry if I bring too much science-fiction to this forum, I am a devotee of Isaac Asimov and Dan Simmons... It is really not science fiction anyway, it will happen.)

**Gurn Blanston** · 12-27-2002, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Let's bend the mind a little more. As I said elsewhere, we have a good chance that Beethoven will be cloned as well as any other great person whose DNA is available and in good enough shape. So let's imagine Beethoven, Bach, Handel, Mozart and who you will (I will will Wagner, but others will not) having coffee together, as I said. But let's include also the likelihood that old age will be conquered in the 21st century so that these reborn geniuses will live for several hundred or a thousand years and influence each other repeatedly. Throw in Goethe to inspire them and there will be a new real golden age of German music.

Certainly Alexander Hamilton, a man of infinite organizational talent and energy, would fit right into the Bush administration. About that I'm not so sanguine. And I'm sure there will be others we will not want back, but some unbalanced obsessive will want to clone anyway....

(Sorry if I bring too much science-fiction to this forum, I am a devotee of Isaac Asimov and Dan Simmons... It is really not science fiction anyway, it will happen.)

Chaszz,
Well, we need to get the ground rules straight then. Admitting the liklihood of human cloning becoming reality, would these people come back as adults (I don't think so) or be reborn as babies and have to grow up in a new environment? There's the rub, Horatio. If genius is completely innate, then it won't matter, but if it is influenced by environment then we might come out with a whole new generation of head-bangers! God help us then! BTW, I agree, it is not science fiction, more like prescience. I think I need to smoke a cigar and hit some golf balls while I figure this one out.
Regards, Gurn

**Andrea** · 12-27-2002, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Well, we need to get the ground rules straight then. Admitting the liklihood of human cloning becoming reality, would these people come back as adults (I don't think so) or be reborn as babies and have to grow up in a new environment? There's the rub, Horatio. If genius is completely innate, then it won't matter, but if it is influenced by environment then we might come out with a whole new generation of head-bangers! God help us then! BTW, I agree, it is not science fiction, more like prescience. I think I need to smoke a cigar and hit some golf balls while I figure this one out.
Regards, Gurn

Well, Gurn, I just heard on the radio this morning that the first cloned human baby was born in Florida to a 30 year old woman. It's a girl. Could this be the beginning of the end?

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