A Clockwork Orange

[John Rasmussen]

Two comments:

Alex's love of Beethoven seems to be his only redeeming trait.

The movie's points: No matter how wicked one person can be, the system is always more wicked, and brainwashing is never justified even on the most wicked.

[Rod]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Two comments:

Alex's love of Beethoven seems to be his only redeeming trait.

I wasn't convinced by the relationship between Alex and Beethoven in this movie. I can't really see a complete psychotic having such good taste. In reality he'd be into gun clubs and elite military units etc, not Beethoven!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

On the other hand, someone remind me who was Hitler's favourite composer again....?!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 05, 2002).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Please forgive, as it's been a few years, but my recollection of C.O. is of a pseudo-futuristic allegory in which the main character (Alex) is portrayed as a victim of society while all the while being not nearly bad so much as fighting back all the time. I think the parallel with the "Lovely, Lovely Ludwig van" is not so much a reflection of his good taste (as Rod put it) but the parts that appealed to him were the parts that also appeal to many other "non-classicists" that have a background in other types of music, the loud, full-tilt, underlying violence parts like the chaos section of the 4th mvmt, and the Turkish March, which he was playing at full volume when his truant/probation officer found him in his room. No sign of the Septet or the Serenade Trio (Op 8) here, which would have been a reflection of good taste!! Whenever you make an allegory, you have to use stereotypes to make the point, perhaps that's why Chris feels SK was too blunt. There is no room for subtlety in allegory, I think. This also explains to my satisfaction at least why "style" (cinematic content?) was so prominent. Anyway, I liked it, as I did all of Kubrick's films, because he didn't follow in anyone else's footsteps, he always put himself out on the edge for his art. Wait a minute, is that Kubrick, or the "Lovely, Lovely Ludwig van?" ;-))
Gurn

[Jin]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
...but the parts that appealed to him were the parts that also appeal to many other "non-classicists" that have a background in other types of music, the loud, full-tilt, underlying violence parts like the chaos section of the 4th mvmt, and the Turkish March...

Would you say that this is generally true of the pieces he chooses in other films, too?

What does everyone think of the classical pieces in Kubrick's other films? I haven't seen all of his films, but I remember there was Mozart in Eyes Wide Shut and of course, Strauss in 2001; I don't remember if there was any classical music in Full Metal Jacket, though. Any thoughts?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Jin:
Would you say that this is generally true of the pieces he chooses in other films, too?

What does everyone think of the classical pieces in Kubrick's other films? I haven't seen all of his films, but I remember there was Mozart in Eyes Wide Shut and of course, Strauss in 2001; I don't remember if there was any classical music in Full Metal Jacket, though. Any thoughts?

2001 is one of my favourite films, even though the plot is fundamentally flawed when the astronaughts make the melodramatic move to switch-off HALL merely for making a single erraneous prediction of a unit failure.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

y

Originally posted by Rod:
2001 is one of my favourite films, even though the plot is fundamentally flawed when the astronaughts make the melodramatic move to switch-off HALL merely for making a single erraneous prediction of a unit failure.

But didn't that single 'error' result in the death of the other astronauts who were on board in their 'sleep compartments'? I could be wrong here as I haven't seen the film in many years! One of my favourties as well.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
y But didn't that single 'error' result in the death of the other astronauts who were on board in their 'sleep compartments'? I could be wrong here as I haven't seen the film in many years! One of my favourties as well.

The error was not responsible for the deaths. HALL became 'murderous' when he discovered they were possibly going to disconnect him - he was programmed to let nothing get in the way of the true reason for the mission, of which only HALL was aware of all those on board. There is no connection with this and the initial very minor matter of the anticipated part failure. If they had not discussed the termination the murders would not have happened. Put it this way, I would not have switched of all the main computer's higher functions because of this minor indisgression which put the ship in no danger regardless.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 07, 2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Jin:
Would you say that this is generally true of the pieces he chooses in other films, too?

What does everyone think of the classical pieces in Kubrick's other films? I haven't seen all of his films, but I remember there was Mozart in Eyes Wide Shut and of course, Strauss in 2001; I don't remember if there was any classical music in Full Metal Jacket, though. Any thoughts?

I rather liked the Lux Aeterna by Ligeti in 2001. The title of the work should, too, be a clue as it represented, possibly, the higher intelligence that had created the monolith.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I rather liked the Lux Aeterna by Ligeti in 2001 .

Can you give a few more details about this music and composer.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm not really sure if there is any relationship between the music choices in SK's other films. I think it's fair to say he had a good ear for the dramatic aspects of music that would appeal to people at all levels. 2001 was indeed first-rate, for not the least reason that Thus Spake Zarathustra (sic) is a "get under the skin" kind of tune that subliminally grabs people and focuses their attention. Also the anti-tech message is there for the taking (HAL, bump each letter up 1 = IBM!!!) The tone of Dave's voice when he keeps repeating "Close the pod-bay door, HAL" is haunting, remaining in your mind long after you see it, the pleading with technology gone wild to not kill him off. All in all, a masterful effort, IMHO. Yes, even though I never considered that I am a Kubrick fan, thinking about this stuff brought home to me how much I enjoyed the majority of his efforts. Thanks for the memory,
Gurn

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by spaceray:
Can you give a few more details about this music and composer.

The Hungarian Gyorgy Ligeti was one of the radical avant-garde composers of the 1950's and '60's. I don't know much more about him but that Kubrick also used a piece of his in "Eyes Wide Shut," this one for solo piano. (Many may remember the characteristic repeated single note in the soundtrack; that was part of it.)

As for the lovely, lyrical title music in that film, it was a waltz from Dmitri Shostakovich's Jazz Suite.

Stanley Kubrick has done as much to spread appreciation of classical music among the public as anyone since Walt Disney and Leopold Stokowski created Fantasia.

[Jin]

Originally posted by Rod:
The error was not responsible for the deaths. HALL became 'murderous' when he discovered they were possibly going to disconnect him - he was programmed to let nothing get in the way of the true reason for the mission, of which only HALL was aware of all those on board. There is no connection with this and the initial very minor matter of the anticipated part failure. If they had not discussed the termination the murders would not have happened. Put it this way, I would not have switched of all the main computer's higher functions because of this minor indisgression which put the ship in no danger regardless.

But wasn't there ominous overtones to the unit failure prediction? I mean, it comes right after HAL asks weird questions to test Dave's psychological state.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Jin:
But wasn't there ominous overtones to the unit failure prediction? I mean, it comes right after HAL asks weird questions to test Dave's psychological state.

Interesting point. But it is not made clear in the film if, and if so why, the computer had ideas to wipe out the crew at this early stage of the movie, and that the part failure episode was part of HALs plans in this respect. This ambiguity in the story leaves me a little unsatisfied, but this aside the film is still an excellent one.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
The error was not responsible for the deaths. HALL became 'murderous' when he discovered they were possibly going to disconnect him - he was programmed to let nothing get in the way of the true reason for the mission, of which only HALL was aware of all those on board. There is no connection with this and the initial very minor matter of the anticipated part failure. If they had not discussed the termination the murders would not have happened. Put it this way, I would not have switched of all the main computer's higher functions because of this minor indisgression which put the ship in no danger regardless.

Thanks for helping me remember.