A Clockwork Orange

[neurosys]

I hope this topic hasn't been explored on this forum before but what are everyone’s opinions on Stanley Kubrick's brilliant film A Clockwork Orange?

It constantly makes reference to Beethoven, in particular the ninth symphony. I love the film, to me it is beyond compare and Beethoven's music complimented Kubrick's masterful directing excellently.

[Chris]

My opinion - the film is crap and Kubrick is the most overrated director ever. No doubt an unpopular opinion!

[neurosys]

Not really, a fair lot of people think that. I think some of his movies like Dr Strangelove are overrated but I think some of his films like A Clockwork Orange and The Shining are awseom.

What didn't you like about it anyway? I'll respect your opinion.

[Chris]

Well, a few things off the top of my head:

1.) The sexual stuff was way overplayed, especially compared to the book.

2.) It pretty much insulted the intelligence of the audience. The whole film Kubrick just seems to be screaming, "You'll all such unbelievable morons that I have to spell out exactly the point I'm trying to make." We got it, really.

3.) The plot was good, but it seems Kubrick decided it should play second fiddle to style. Some things lost their punch as a result of this, like the violence.

4.) The ending of the film (and some versions of the book) is not good. It makes the film work against itself, in a way, and in light of my number 2, that's a pretty serious problem. I much prefer the story ending as originally intended (the 21st chapter).

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, a few things off the top of my head:

1.) The sexual stuff was way overplayed, especially compared to the book.

2.) It pretty much insulted the intelligence of the audience. The whole film Kubrick just seems to be screaming, "You'll all such unbelievable morons that I have to spell out exactly the point I'm trying to make." We got it, really.

3.) The plot was good, but it seems Kubrick decided it should play second fiddle to style. Some things lost their punch as a result of this, like the violence.

4.) The ending of the film (and some versions of the book) is not good. It makes the film work against itself, in a way, and in light of my number 2, that's a pretty serious problem. I much prefer the story ending as originally intended (the 21st chapter).

I believe that Kubrick in some of his films intends the style (I would prefer to say the visual content) to be the real subject rather than the plot. In Clockwork Orange, the violence is obviously choregraphed, and not meant as violence per se. In Barry Lyndon, the plot is ridiculously trivial, pointedly so, as compared with the visual poetry of the photography. So also to some extent in his last film, Eyes Wide Shut. In many ways this was an essay on warm colors (reds, oranges) as against cool colors like blue. A case in point here is when the married couple were in their bedroom discussing their lives and becoming aware of the fragility of their marriage, the waning daylight reflected on the furniture and walls in its intense oranges and blues was not a backdrop to the scene, but WAS the scene.

Whether they succeed as films or not is another matter, but I think understanding his intentions makes them more understandable.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
Well, a few things off the top of my head:

1.) The sexual stuff was way overplayed, especially compared to the book.
3.) The plot was good, but it seems Kubrick decided it should play second fiddle to style. Some things lost their punch as a result of this, like the violence.

4.) The ending of the film (and some versions of the book) is not good. It makes the film work against itself, in a way, and in light of my number 2, that's a pretty serious problem. I much prefer the story ending as originally intended (the 21st chapter).

I agree with all of these points. Not one of his best, althought I know people who absolutely loved it beyond anyone's dreams. You have to agree with one thing though, Kubrick was a one of a kind director and most parts of some of his other movies were pretty awesome the way he took poetic license with certain ideas. '2001: A Space Odyssey' comes to mind. Some scenes were brillantly done.


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited December 02, 2002).]

[neurosys]

Originally posted by Chris:
2.) It pretty much insulted the intelligence of the audience. The whole film Kubrick just seems to be screaming, "You'll all such unbelievable morons that I have to spell out exactly the point I'm trying to make." We got it, really.

No way! Kubrick obviously ment to make the movie the way he did and in no way can Kubrick ever be described at thinking of his viewers as stupid. Look at The Shining, it is actually a metaphor of the slaughtering of native American Indians. I don't see how he could be so subliminal with one one movie and then for another film call the viewers idiots.

[Chris]

It is strange. I think perhaps he got really self-righteous or something somewhere along the line, because all of his movies were not like this.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited December 02, 2002).]

[neurosys]

In what way?

[Chris]

In the sense that they all did not have that quality.

[neurosys]

Originally posted by Chris:
In the sense that they all did not have that quality.

Forgive my ignorance but which movie? Do you mean the quality of The Shining and how subliminal the metaphor he creates is?

[Chris]

No, I mean in not all his movies did he feel he needed to drive home his point with a jackhammer, as in A Clockwork Orange.

[Rod]

Originally posted by neurosys:
I hope this topic hasn't been explored on this forum before but what are everyone’s opinions on Stanley Kubrick's brilliant film A Clockwork Orange?

I thought the movie was crap, grossly over-hyped. The connection with the main character and his interest in Beethoven seemed artificial to me.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[dice45]

All,
Kubrick seems to have the ability to play on his viewer's emotions like a pianist on his instrument's keyboard.
I sensed this in all his movies, particularly in 2001, Dr.Strangelove, Full Metal Jacket, Clockwork Orange.

In Clockwork Orange, no Q, the protagonists is a mean bastard. Violating any ethical rule coming within reach. THen he is caught and processed by this awkward legal system and in the end i find myself pity him, the bastard. Pity him deeply. And i still wonder how Kubrick achieved this, i talked with my buddies, they got the same feeling.
Kubrick does not only handle his style with utter ease, he manipulates his viewer's emotions and show him by that how fragile and instable and influencable the own emotions are and how easy they get in confilct with ethics. From that POV, it's a morality play.

In that respect i disagree with you, Chris and Rod. This movie is not overrated, it is highly underrated, it his corrosive, dangerous. I saw it two times, i refuse to see it another time until i am sure i am emotionally stable *enough*.

Recently i saw Dr Strangelove as original without subtitles. It is as corrosive, it is showing how corrupted political structures are and how few we can take for granted "they up there" care for us and out health and wealth...

I bet that in any totalitarian state in the world, no matter if left-wing or right-wing oriented, Dr Strangelove is or has been indexed, banned as soon as it it released.
Because it destroys trust in the powers-that-be. So does Clockwork Orange .. just a bit more subtle and mean.

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Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited December 04, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

I agree with Bernhard on these two films. I also just wnat to put in a couple of good words for Dr. Strangelove from another angle. After all these years it's still one of the funniest films I've ever seen (at least in certain parts), and it's one of the few I can always watch over again. And Peter Sellers' triple performance is just great.