Help to select Bethoven Works

[hikicha]

Hello everyone ,
Iam a new member for this wonderfull forum While ther are so many worthless forums floating around ,this is quite a contrast .
What i require is some knowledge of the works of bethoven .I have already bought the Ninth SYmphony of bethoveen .Wonderfull it is !!!Can some body suggest me which are the most excellent works of Bethoveen so that i can buy them ???

[Peter]

You've certainly got a task there - Beethoven wrote on such a consistently high level that it's hard to think of a work that isn't excellent!

However there are certain musts I would recommend when starting out collecting Beethoven - Piano Concertos 4&5, Symphonies 3,5,7, Violin Concerto, Overtures: Egmont & Leonore nr3. Piano sonatas: Pathetique, Moonlight & Waldstein.

That should be enough to wet your appetite - after that you should consider getting the remaining Symphonies, Concertos, Sonatas and the String Quartets. These days you can buy the complete works or you can buy them in groups such as the complete Symphonies.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by hikicha:
Can some body suggest me which are the most excellent works of Bethoveen so that i can buy them ???

All of Beethoven's works are 'excellent' ! As a member you will already be able to download free music at the 'rare music' link on the BRS home page. This is some of B's lesser know material, but proof that even this stuff is first rate. Soon we will be upoading sections of the major works at this page for you to sample. Hopefully all this will encourage people to enhance thier Beethoven CD collections and appreciation of ALL of B's music.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by hikicha:
Hello everyone ,
Iam a new member for this wonderfull forum While ther are so many worthless forums floating around ,this is quite a contrast .
What i require is some knowledge of the works of bethoven .I have already bought the Ninth SYmphony of bethoveen .Wonderfull it is !!!Can some body suggest me which are the most excellent works of Bethoveen so that i can buy them ???

Don't forget his collection of Bagatelles. I have Vol. I & II by pianist Jeno Jando. Very nice listening. But, beware, once you start collecting all of his masterpieces you may not be able to stop!!

Joy

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
Soon we will be upoading sections of the major works at this page for you to sample. Hopefully all this will encourage people to enhance thier Beethoven CD collections and appreciation of ALL of B's music.

Looking forward to it!!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:

However there are certain musts I would recommend when starting out collecting Beethoven - Piano Concertos 4&5, Symphonies 3,5,7, Violin Concerto, Overtures: Egmont & Leonore nr3. Piano sonatas: Pathetique, Moonlight & Waldstein.

That should be enough to wet your appetite - after that you should consider getting the remaining Symphonies, Concertos, Sonatas and the String Quartets. These days you can buy the complete works or you can buy them in groups such as the complete Symphonies.

Don't forget the rest of the overtures! They are great music, too!

[dice45]

hikicha,

i just would like to throw in some performance recommendations for the list Peter gave... other members may have other preferences (I could not resist to stuff the list a bit, apologize, Peter )

Piano Concertos 4&5: Wilhelm Kempff
(2nd preferences Solomon & Wilhelm Backhaus)
Make that all piano concertos. Kempff has the magic touch here ...

Symphonies
#3: Erich Kleiber cond. Concertgebouw Orch. Amsterdam (hesitating to call Toscanini a 2nd choice here, i call Rene Leibowitz 2nd, see #9)

#5: Serge Koussevitzky cond. Boston SO, (2nd preference Erich Kleiber cond.Concertgebouw Orch. Amsterdam and H.Scherchen cond.Orch.dell Svizzera Italiana, 3rd: Rene Leibowitz, see #9)

#6 "Pastoral": Erich Kleiber cond. London PO. no 2nd choice. If you all think this is an opus untypical for Beethoven and rather belongiong to the Romantic era, you haven't heard the Kleiber performance (well, ok, some 5th choices: Bruno Walter, very romantic and faintly reminiscing LvB, Rene Leibowitz reminiscing LvB, but fast if not rash "let's be at home in time for 5 o'clock tea"

#7: Hermann Scherchen cond. Vienna SOO (hesitating to call Toscanini a second choice here)

#9 "Choral": Erich Kleiber cond. Vienna PO.
For a complete recording of Beethoven's symphonies the Rene Leibowitz recording (initially on RCA Custom for Readers Digest) is truly recommended and i would consider it as equivalent 2nd choice. Particularly for the #9 .


Violin Concerto: David Oistrakh with Sixten Ehrling cond. the Festival Orchestra Stockholm. (2nd choice: David Oistrakh with Andre Cluytens cond. Orch.de la Radiodiffusion Francaise.

Overtures: Egmont & Leonore nr3.
Hermann Scherchen conducting different orchestras.

Piano sonatas:
A good entrance is the Wilhelm Backhaus complete recording. True Beethoven, nothing missing, very differntiated. Sooo obvious and looking overly simplified but entering your mind thru the backdoor. Avoid the Pathetique (or was it the Pastorale? i always mix that up)
The real hard stuff is Solomon and Arthur Schnabel.
Paul Badura Skoda plays it comparatively analytical and intellectual but never misses the overall message emotionally, one can sense he must have mused intensively about the notes, both emotionally and intellectually, before he sat down and played the 1st chord. Very recommended.

Pathetique: Schnabel, Solomon,

Moonlight: Solomon, Schnabel, Kempff, Backhaus, Badura-Skoda

Waldstein: Solomon, Backhaus, Schnabel, Badura-Skoda.

Appassionata: Schnabel, Solomon, Badura-Skoda

Les Adieux: Schnabel, Solomon, Badura-Skoda

Tempest: Solomon, Schnabel, Badura-Skoda

Hammerklavier: Solomon. Noone's performance i like more. Well, Paul Badura-Skoda also is doing a might fine job. And the others mentioned here too. Solomon however taught me the coherent structure.
Warning. The Hammerklavier sonata together with string quartets. op.131, op.132 and Grosse Fuge op.133 are heavy challenges for the listener as for the performer. It can take years or decades to grow into.

op.111: Solomon. . . Schnabel. Kempff. Badura-Skoda.

One thing, Badura-Skoda has a pianoforte-like touch on the modern piano. I hear there have been recordings released played by him on a period pianoforte. I am always interested in period instrument performances provided the performance is up to the task artistically and not a period instrument Selbstzweck (end-in-itself, self-purpose, justifying the own existence). So: i would be very interested in this period-instrument performance from Badura-Skoda. Anyone know where to get it? If the CDs are out of print, i would go as far and ask anyone to burn me a copy of his own and send money to Badura-Skoda to make it up for the decentralized safety copy (nice euphemism, isn't it? )

String Quartets. I could not decide for any of them. Slight preference of mine is probably op.131 and op.59/2 and 59/3. See that you get one of the Budapest String Quartet performances.
My personal preference are the 2nd recordings made on mono vinyl in the early 50ies, except for the Grosse Fuge, there i prefer the 3rd recording from 60ies on stereo vinyl.
My friend is raving about the Barylli Quartet performances ... he has played some to me, he is right, i add them as 2nd choice.
============
So, one disclaimer, i haven't cared about CD availability with my suggestions above, i am a shellac and vinyl man. Your task to find out if and where to get them on CD.
But as more and more historical performances are re-issued on CD, it just is a Q of patience and persistence to get most of them. And... if you should step into a CD re-issue of the 5th symphony with Koussevitzky, tell me, i want one.
Kleiber's recording of 3rd and 5th symphony is available: Decca 467125-2
The Scherchen 5th (rehearsal and performance) is available on atleast 2 different record labels. I have Aura AUR 138-2.
Another disclaimer. I do know quite a count of people loving Beethoven's symphonic music a lot but cannot handle his chamber music emotionally. Be warned about the emotional intensity happening on the chamber music hints above.

Enough hints to create considerable vacuum on your bank account

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited November 30, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:
One thing, Badura-Skoda has a pianoforte-like touch on the modern piano. I hear there have been recordings released played by him on a period pianoforte. I am always interested in period instrument performances provided the performance is up to the task artistically and not a period instrument Selbstzweck (end-in-itself, self-purpose, justifying the own existence). So: i would be very interested in this period-instrument performance from Badura-Skoda. Anyone know where to get it? If the CDs are out of print, i would go as far and ask anyone to burn me a copy of his own and send money to Badura-Skoda to make it up for the decentralized safety copy (nice euphemism, isn't it? )

Until I got to this section of your post I thought you were refering to Badura-Skoda's recordings on authentic pianos, which I have myself, but are no longer available, here in London at least. I was unaware there was a modern piano set in existance by B-S.

The performances in this set are variable in quality, as is the sound, but overall out of the 10 volumes all but one I would certainly recommend - especially since I'm only really interested in Beethoven played on the old pianos these days.

If you hang around the Beethoven Reference site long enough you will be able to sample some of B-S's efforts yourself as some of these tracks will appear in what currently is the 'Rare Beethoven' page.

Concerning the issue of vinly I'm afraid the virtually instant degredation of the disk and the inherent problem with variable recording levels and compression put me off this format long ago, at least concerning classical music. Though I accept there are certain sonic benefits with vinyl, with the right equipment.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:


One thing, Badura-Skoda has a pianoforte-like touch on the modern piano. I hear there have been recordings released played by him on a period pianoforte. I am always interested in period instrument performances provided the performance is up to the task artistically and not a period instrument Selbstzweck (end-in-itself, self-purpose, justifying the own existence). So: i would be very interested in this period-instrument performance from Badura-Skoda. Anyone know where to get it? If the CDs are out of print, i would go as far and ask anyone to burn me a copy of his own and send money to Badura-Skoda to make it up for the decentralized safety copy (nice euphemism, isn't it? )

Until I got to this section of your post I thought you were refering to Badura-Skoda's recordings on authentic pianos, which I have myself, but are no longer available, here in London at least. I was unaware there was a modern piano set in existance by B-S.

The performances in this set are variable in quality, as is the sound, but overall out of the 10 volumes all but one I would certainly recommend - especially since I'm only really interested in Beethoven played on the old pianos these days.

If you hang around the Beethoven Reference site long enough you will be able to sample some of B-S's efforts yourself as some of these tracks will appear in what currently is the 'Rare Beethoven' page.

Concerning the issue of vinly I'm afraid the virtually instant degredation of the disk and the inherent problem with variable recording levels and compression put me off this format long ago, at least concerning classical music. Though I accept there are certain sonic benefits with vinyl, with the right equipment. Also, considering I usually listen to music 'on the move' they have yet to develop a turntable you can stick in your pocket.



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[dice45]

Rod,

the performance i was referring to was initially issued on the Intercord label. Which is long gone. It was a birthday gift from my friend.
This performance is about to be reissued by a small Swiss label on CD.
The period instrument performance is unavailable at the moment.
I too spotted that Badura-Skoda does not keep consistent quality in all sonatas. His performances are new to me and for those sonatas i listed he adds utterly valuable viewpoints; his analytical play is like dissecting a frog just that the frog Beethoven survives it.

Badura-Skoda is a bold man. Recently he played J.S.Bach on a harpsichord performance, the CD is just great, my friend told me. I am eager to hear it as i too prefer the opus played on the instrument it was composed for. Which is the harpsichord in Bach's case.
The same person playing harpsichord and modern piano i thought to be incompatible so far.

I listened to several period instrument performances, i did not get along with them. Famous pianist Elly Ney among them. Nothing to do with the period instrument.
Much to do with the pianist's insight into the opus' and composer's spirit.
I am intentionally naming Yugoslavioan pianist Ivo P. as example. Listen to his op.111 performance, then listen to Solomon ...please form your own judgement.

A clear reference for one performance, independent of instrument used, can even happen on a very high level and with small differences.
Take J.S.Bachs violin sonatas & partitas for instance: Otto Büchner plays the Ciaconna just gorgeous (Calig label); he plays it with a round bow and this is necessary to play 3- and 4-stringed chords as noted, at an appropriate volume and without arpeggios. Beautiful, nothing to compain about. I love it. But there is this Szeryng perfomrance (Deutsche Grammophon, not the earlier Columbia) played with the modern straight bow. Do the arpeggios needed to play the chords disturb? Does it repell that Szeryng can play those chords only forte or fortissimo? No. Szeryng simply integrates all in a different way and the big bows and phrases remain coherent and cogent and intense where Büchner sometimes fades a bit out. Szeryng is more convincing and cogent to my mind. Inspite of the modern bow. Would i have to decide for one out of both, i would take the Szeryng. Meanwhile also available as CD: DGG 453004-2

Vinyl,
well, i did not call for vinyl/CD to be discussed and i think this would lead off-trail here. I have about 1500 vinyls and less than 50 CDs. I cannot talk much about CD and i do not feel competent to hand out a school of thought here. I'd just like to trow in that i have quite a count of >40ys old vinyl playing like new. Many of them have lost luster and have a lot of spindle trails, telling about the use & wear they had. If the styli of past players were intact, vinyl records are not deterioated in quality.
OKok, vinyl from post1973 is not that rugged anymore.
Compression indeed is nasty but does not become apparent all to often. A vinyl record can have 60dB and i do not know many audio systems which are capable to hammer genuine 60dB of dynamics into the living room. And few CDs make use of the 106 (theoretically) or 90 dB (practically) available.

I always thought that recordings made for vinyl do not belong on CD and vice versa. This belief has been shattered recently, together with fellow Munich Triode Mafia members i compared vinyl and CD of same performance. Pop, Jazz, Classical. Vinyl unanimously won sonically in 10 out of 10 cases. Never had expected that. Oh yes, the CD player was up to task sonically. It was a DIY drive/DAC setup designed and built by a fellow MTM member having a very unorthodox technical concept and the best sonics i ever heard for a CD player.

I am glad i have CD. So much music is only available on CD and i am into music. For OOP CDs, well, I'd love to buy them, just cannot so if someone does me the favour to get me a copy i usually cannot resist. As it's not fair towards the musician not to pay for his music, well, if he can reached, i send him the money i would have paid for the CD.

But if i can get the stuff on vinyl (the earlier the pressing the better) i prefer vinyl. And nothing beats a 1st pressing. One exception so far where i prefer the CD. not an ideological thing like for most. I just follow what my ears tell me

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited November 30, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by dice45:
Rod,

Badura-Skoda is a bold man. Recently he played J.S.Bach on a harpsichord performance, the CD is just great, my friend told me. I am eager to hear it as i too prefer the opus played on the instrument it was composed for. Which is the harpsichord in Bach's case.
The same person playing harpsichord and modern piano i thought to be incompatible so far.

Well, I always recommend that Harpsichord music is played on the instrument it was designed for. This music serves only to reveal the clunky nature of the modern piano in comparison with the superbly fluid harp. Certainly I would not even dream of listening to Handel's suites on the piano, for this is genuine dynamic harp music in the fullest sence. I can understand the temptation to play Bach on the piano, given the nature of his keyboard music I have heard, in an effort to inject some pathos and drama to these excercises (Handel's suites too were largely compiled from lesson material). Beethoven played Bach this way too, though pianos of the time were better suited I think to this practise than todays. But I have no doubt that the harpsichord is still a valid instrument in its own right (at least those modelled on authentic instruments) and preferential to the piano for its own library of material.

Originally posted by dice45:

. But certainly on t
I listened to several period instrument performances, i did not get along with them. Famous pianist Elly Ney among them. Nothing to do with the period instrument.
Much to do with the pianist's insight into the opus' and composer's spirit.
I am intentionally naming Yugoslavioan pianist Ivo P. as example. Listen to his op.111 performance, then listen to Solomon ...please form your own judgement.

I posted a link to Badura-Skodas performance of the first movement of Op111, played on an 1820s Graf, here some time ago and it met with universal praise. To this day I have heard no better rendition of this track.

Originally posted by dice45:

Vinyl...

My principal complaint with this format comes with large scale vocal pieces. Choruses are compressed, then soloists are too loud, but perhaps this is also the fault of the mixing technician, and the egos of the (usually bad) soloists...

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 01, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
You've certainly got a task there - Beethoven wrote on such a consistently high level that it's hard to think of a work that isn't excellent!

However there are certain musts I would recommend when starting out collecting Beethoven - Piano Concertos 4&5, Symphonies 3,5,7, Violin Concerto, Overtures: Egmont & Leonore nr3. Piano sonatas: Pathetique, Moonlight & Waldstein.

That should be enough to wet your appetite - after that you should consider getting the remaining Symphonies, Concertos, Sonatas and the String Quartets. These days you can buy the complete works or you can buy them in groups such as the complete Symphonies.

I would just like to put in a good word for Symphonies # 2, 6 and 8. Beethoven's odd -numbered symphonies are usually preferred, and of course I agree they are supreme masterpieces, but these even-numbered ones also are among my favorites of his works.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I would just like to put in a good word for Symphonies # 2, 6 and 8. Beethoven's odd -numbered symphonies are usually preferred, and of course I agree they are supreme masterpieces, but these even-numbered ones also are among my favorites of his works.

All the Symphonies are, indeed, masterpieces. I enjoy very much listening to Number 2. Number 4 isn't bad, either. One just has to listen to it a few times and not think of the other great works that surround it.

[Joy]

The even numbered symphonies sometimes don't get their due. I, for one, love No. 4 and No. 8 has been one of my favourites for so many years since I was younger. Too bad it's the shortest of his Symphonies. When I saw it played in concert live, which was one of my many dreams, I thought, when it was over, 'I waited 20 years to hear that live and it's over in a half an hour!' But it was a wonderful experience!!

Joy