The Ninth Symphony - the Great Discord

[nickelljromjue]

Here is another Beethoven question that I would greatly welcome views of this forum on: What was the meaning, for Beethoven, of the "great discord" that opens the finale of the Ninth Symphony? I have a theory, stated in a short story I've published, "The Symphony," as to why it came to him, and I wonder how close it comes to the truth. Did Beethoven ever explain it in a letter or other writing? Would anyone like to offer an opinion or view on the advent and suddenness of the great discord in the finale of the Ninth Symphony of Ludwig van Beethoven?

Romjue

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Romjue

[Peter]

Isn't the answer contained in the opening words of the ode? - "O friends, no more these sounds!Let us sing more cheerful songs,More full of joy!"

Beneath the first sketch for the baritone's recitative Beethoven had written - 'No, this chaos reminds us of our despair. Today is a day of celebration; let it be celebrated with song and dance.'

I think perhaps Beethoven had Haydn's Creation in mind here with the opening 'chaos' - a work he was known to have greatly admired.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by nickelljromjue:
Here is another Beethoven question that I would greatly welcome views of this forum on: What was the meaning, for Beethoven, of the "great discord" that opens the finale of the Ninth Symphony? I have a theory, stated in a short story I've published, "The Symphony," as to why it came to him, and I wonder how close it comes to the truth...

Romjue

What is your theory Romjue!?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Isn't the answer contained in the opening words of the ode? - "O friends, no more these sounds!Let us sing more cheerful songs,More full of joy!"

Beneath the first sketch for the baritone's recitative Beethoven had written - 'No, this chaos reminds us of our despair. Today is a day of celebration; let it be celebrated with song and dance.'

I think perhaps Beethoven had Haydn's Creation in mind here with the opening 'chaos' - a work he was known to have greatly admired.

It is also a great device to get the listeners' undivided attention.

[John Rasmussen]

A technical note: When the Great Discord appears the second time, just before the first vocal entrance, it is even more dissonant, containing every note in the D minor (harmonic) scale! Like his last quartets, this is a striking forerunner of contemporary harmonies.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
A technical note: When the Great Discord appears the second time, just before the first vocal entrance, it is even more dissonant, containing every note in the D minor (harmonic) scale! Like his last quartets, this is a striking forerunner of contemporary harmonies.

Technical correction: there is no natural d in the reappearance of the discord, so there is no complete harmonic scale. There are a flat d and a sharp d, but no harmonic scale can be without its natural tonic. I can provide a score if necessary.


[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited October 12, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Technical correction: there is no natural d in the reappearance of the discord, so there is no complete harmonic scale. There are a flat d and a sharp d, but no harmonic scale can be without its natural tonic. I can provide a score if necessary.

I'm afraid you are wrong and John is correct - you are not understanding transposing instruments or different clefs properly - the D is in the 2nd horn (written as C but sounding as D). There is no D# - that is a C# in the viola alto clef. The Db in the clarinet sounds as Bb.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Annnnnnd chopitoven gets owned by transposing instruments and clefs...another victim of the most annoying thing in music

You know what else I hate? Horns are never given a key signature (traditionally in orchestral music, anyway). Every sharp and flat is specified as an accidental. Blah.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:

I'm afraid you are wrong and John is correct - you are not understanding transposing instruments or different clefs properly - the D is in the 2nd horn (written as C but sounding as D). There is no D# - that is a C# in the viola alto clef. The Db in the clarinet sounds as Bb.

Well, I must apologize for my lack of knowledge, specially to John. I suppose it's not correct for somebody who only knows the notation for the piano to try to understand an orchestral score. So, in which line or space is the G sound in a Horn in D stave and in a Horn in B stave, when they both have a G clef? (that's how it is in my score, you can see it in http://archivospato.tripod.com/4-12.gif)

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited October 12, 2002).]

[Chris]

NOTE TO ALL - Tripod does not allow direct image linking, so if you want to see chopitoven's gif, you will have to copy and paste the URL.

chopitoven: If you have an instrument "in D," for example, that instrument's C will sound like the D on a piano. So, a clarinet in Bb will play a C and it will sound like a piano's Bb.

For the alto clef, middle C is the center line on the staff.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Chris:
NOTE TO ALL - Tripod does not allow direct image linking, so if you want to see chopitoven's gif, you will have to copy and paste the URL.

chopitoven: If you have an instrument "in D," for example, that instrument's C will sound like the D on a piano. So, a clarinet in Bb will play a C and it will sound like a piano's Bb.

For the alto clef, middle C is the center line on the staff.

Thanks for the information, and I implore your pardon again.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Thanks for the information, and I implore your pardon again.

No apology necessary! Scores are complex, and B9 is one of the most complex and difficult of all.

For all those who have scores, here are the transpositions used in B9 at the Presto's return:
Flutes and oboes: as written
Clarinets in A: sound a minor third lower than written
Bassoons: as written
Contrabassoon: sounds an octave lower
Horns in D: a minor seventh lower
Horns in Bb: a major ninth lower
Trumpets in D: a whole step higher
Timpani, Baritone Solo, and Strings: as written, except for the double basses which sound an octave lower.

What makes it even more fun is that these transpositions change in different movements and even within the last movement! In the first three movements the clarinets are in Bb, while in the third movement the first two horns are in Bb and the third and fourth are in Eb. But then, anyone who's seen a Wagner score knows that the horns and trumpets may change transpositions every few measures. Why Wagner did that when valved horns were available to him I don't know.

I hope I've reduced, not increased, any confusion.

BTW, I agree with Chris about key signatures for horns and trumpets. The practice made sense in the days of valveless instruments, since these always played in the written key of C; it makes no sense now that valved instruments can play the entire chromatic scale throughout their range. Some modern composers and arrangers have begun to use key signatures for horns and trumpets when required.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
No apology necessary! Scores are complex, and B9 is one of the most complex and difficult of all.

For all those who have scores, here are the transpositions used in B9 at the Presto's return:
Flutes and oboes: as written
Clarinets in A: sound a minor third lower than written
Bassoons: as written
Contrabassoon: sounds an octave lower
Horns in D: a minor seventh lower
Horns in Bb: a major ninth lower
Trumpets in D: a whole step higher
Timpani, Baritone Solo, and Strings: as written, except for the double basses which sound an octave lower.

What makes it even more fun is that these transpositions change in different movements and even within the last movement! In the first three movements the clarinets are in Bb, while in the third movement the first two horns are in Bb and the third and fourth are in Eb. But then, anyone who's seen a Wagner score knows that the horns and trumpets may change transpositions every few measures. Why Wagner did that when valved horns were available to him I don't know.

I hope I've reduced, not increased, any confusion.

BTW, I agree with Chris about key signatures for horns and trumpets. The practice made sense in the days of valveless instruments, since these always played in the written key of C; it makes no sense now that valved instruments can play the entire chromatic scale throughout their range. Some modern composers and arrangers have begun to use key signatures for horns and trumpets when required.

And how can you change the tone in which a wind instrument sounds? and what for?

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited October 13, 2002).]

[Chris]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but...

If you are talking about a "clarinet in A" vs. a "clarinet in Bb" vs. a "clarinet in Eb" well, these are actually three different instruments. If the part calls for a clarinet in A, you don't just take your clarinet in Bb and transpose. Well, you could (except for differences in instrument ranges), but that was not the intent.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Chris:
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but...

If you are talking about a "clarinet in A" vs. a "clarinet in Bb" vs. a "clarinet in Eb" well, these are actually three different instruments. If the part calls for a clarinet in A, you don't just take your clarinet in Bb and transpose. Well, you could (except for differences in instrument ranges), but that was not the intent.

Understood.