Mozart's music

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
Really a pointless discussion. Both composers were great masters and if you find B or M more appealing to you fine, but don't get your opinion confused with fact. Both men are doubtless in the top 5, that is all that matters to me. BTW which is the better color yellow or blue ?

Steve

I'd be interested to know where you think it is in this chain where 'opinions' are in conflict with 'facts'?!

Given that almost all of the well known composers had their 'champions', this discussion is no more low-brow than those held by these famous men.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
Really a pointless discussion. Both composers were great masters and if you find B or M more appealing to you fine, but don't get your opinion confused with fact. Both men are doubtless in the top 5, that is all that matters to me. BTW which is the better color yellow or blue ?

Steve

Definately yellow!

[Chris]

<font color = #0000FF>Nonsense you fools! Blue is clearly the greatest color. Blue owns you all.</font>

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'd be interested to know where you think it is in this chain where 'opinions' are in conflict with 'facts'?!

I didn't mean to imply there were any incorrect facts presented. What I do mean is that preference for Mozart or Beethoven
does not qualify as making him "the best" I see that confusion from time to time here, as I also see it on Mozart oriented sites. If you don't like Mozart that doesn't make him a bad composer. I don't like Haydn in general, but I trust that he is a great composer, as many knowledgeable people do love him, and some of his works I also find quite appealing. I find statements that Mozart is clearly better, or vice versa to be quite unprovable, but they do speak quite clearly to the lack of understanding of the poster.

Regards

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
....but they do speak quite clearly to the lack of understanding of the poster.

Regards

Steve

Tell that to Beethoven!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
I didn't mean to imply there were any incorrect facts presented. What I do mean is that preference for Mozart or Beethoven
does not qualify as making him "the best" I see that confusion from time to time here, as I also see it on Mozart oriented sites. If you don't like Mozart that doesn't make him a bad composer. I don't like Haydn in general, but I trust that he is a great composer, as many knowledgeable people do love him, and some of his works I also find quite appealing. I find statements that Mozart is clearly better, or vice versa to be quite unprovable, but they do speak quite clearly to the lack of understanding of the poster.

Regards

Steve

Certainly, personal opinion does not really contribute to such a discussion. When one does look at the output of both composers one can determine who's music is better constructed, which composer makes best use of materials (themes, harmonies, etc.), which composer had the greater influence on posterity in terms of subsequent compositional trends as well as longevity for personal appeal, as well as other criteria.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Certainly, personal opinion does not really contribute to such a discussion. When one does look at the output of both composers one can determine who's music is better constructed, which composer makes best use of materials (themes, harmonies, etc.), which composer had the greater influence on posterity in terms of subsequent compositional trends as well as longevity for personal appeal, as well as other criteria.

Explain why so much Beethoven is never performed or rarely even recorded, when so much other drivel from the world of classical music is? There is a critical lack of discernment from those concerned with this genre of music. As far as I am concerned a considerable proportion of this music is barely worth the paper its written on.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
Tell that to Beethoven!

Please explain how that is a response.

Steve

[Susie Pratt]

Hey Yenl, it must be lonely to be a Mozart fan in this the Beethoven territory... I too love Mozart and prefer him to any other composer. He's the King of Melodies, that's all I want to say.

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
Please explain how that is a response.

Steve

Beethoven himself in later life stated on various occasions that Handel was the greatest composer, on two of these he makes this judgement directly in comparison with Mozart, and of all the baroque composers only Handel and JS Bach were any good.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven himself in later life stated on various occasions that Handel was the greatest composer, on two of these he makes this judgement directly in comparison with Mozart, and of all the baroque composers only Handel and JS Bach were any good.

Then Mozart and Beethoven would have been in agreement about Handel. Mozart did arangements of Handels Messiah, Acis and Galetea, Judas Macaebus. He had nothing but praise for Handel. I also am aware os a Beethoven quote re: Mozart. Beethoven carried a copy of one of the Mozart piano concertos (#20 k466 I think). Schindler reported that Beethoven had said "We will never be able to write music like this". Well, Beethoven was incorrect in my opinion because he did write music as good.

I have things about Beethoven I prefer over Mozart. I have Mozartian pieces that exceed Beethoven. I can't pick a "champ" If you think you can thats great, for you. Another earlier poster made reference to the fact that subjective issues can't be resolved but that somehow it is possible to decide who made BETTER use of melody or harmony. Please define BETTER.

So what do you think is yellow or blue the BEST color ?


Regards

Steve

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by SR:
I have things about Beethoven I prefer over Mozart. I have Mozartian pieces that exceed Beethoven. I can't pick a "champ" If you think you can thats great, for you. Another earlier poster made reference to the fact that subjective issues can't be resolved but that somehow it is possible to decide who made BETTER use of melody or harmony. Please define BETTER.

So what do you think is yellow or blue the BEST color ?


Regards

Steve

I agree, Steve. There is a lot of subjectivity involved in these judgments, and different people hear the same composer differently. When a composer makes it into the standard repertory, than posterity has spoken; but posterity is just a great many subjective judgments that happen to more or less agree. I don't believe there are valid objective standards for judging a work that allow it to be ranked, or admitted or excluded. Those standards exist to be broken, as Beethoven did many times.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I agree, Steve. There is a lot of subjectivity involved in these judgments, and different people hear the same composer differently. When a composer makes it into the standard repertory, than posterity has spoken; but posterity is just a great many subjective judgments that happen to more or less agree. I don't believe there are valid objective standards for judging a work that allow it to be ranked, or admitted or excluded. Those standards exist to be broken, as Beethoven did many times.

I'm responding to myself here, since there's something I'd like to add to what I said just above. Here's a quote from a commentary on Wagner's Tannhauser, which I think says a lot:

"That salvation theme that begins and ends the opera at different intensities is a simple progression of quarter, half and triple notes in three-quarter time. What makes it so potent that one can still be stirred at the five hundredth hearing?... The mystery of music must transcend explanation."

This is true, and I think more awareness of music's mystery would temper the tendency of several writers on this site to reduce it to comparisons of an absolute nature, and of each to think of his own subjective opinion as a sort of scientific truth.

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[Rod]

[quote]Originally posted by Chaszz:
[b]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

This is true, and I think more awareness of music's mystery would temper the tendency of several writers on this site to reduce it to comparisons of an absolute nature, and of each to think of his own subjective opinion as a sort of scientific truth.

Several writers...? It seems to this writer that the status quo is worthy of contradiction. It is only through a more polarised and focussed frame of thought that any progress can be made. And anyway, blanket statements like 'oh I like all composers' make for poor conversation. Which is why most CM bulletin boards, other than this one, are utterly tedious.

I agree that music is to a degree a 'mystery' that should not be pigeon-holed into fanciful poetic picture painting that writers often attempt to do. Rather, comments should be restricted where possible to general analysis of form and content, and nothing more. Music is music. If I want romantic drivel I can read a Mills & Boon novel!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 04, 2002).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:

I agree that music is to a degree a 'mystery' that should not be pigeon-holed into fanciful poetic picture painting that writers often attempt to do. Rather, comments should be restricted where possible to general analysis of form and content, and nothing more. Music is music. If I want romantic drivel I can read a Mills & Boon novel!

If one person thinks a melody is beautiful and full of life, and another cannot hear anything much in it, no analysis of form and content will clarify this mystery. And this emotional reaction is the reason people bother to listen to music.

And what to you is romantic drivel may be the first person attempting to describe the ineffable feelings that the music gives him, in the only way he knows how or can attempt. Surely saying that 'the change in the second development section, where the subdominant is used instead of the relative minor,
is very original', communicates to the other person an even worse idea of what the listener is experiencing.