Mozart's music

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
While I love Mozart's music very much, I very definitely see Beethoven as the superior composer. To me it seems that Beethoven never wrote a single note that wasn't carefully considered and absolutely perfect in its place. Mozart on the other hand, had quite a bit of stuff that was just kind of thrown out there, without much care, or so it seems to my ears. Sometimes when I am listening to Mozart, I think to myself, "How wonderful it would have been if he had done this instead." But with Beethoven, every bit of potential seems painstakingly squeezed from the material, making each individual work a true labor of love. That, to me, is the difference.

Pianist Alfred Brendel, one of the more intelligently articulate musicians, discusses Mozart and Beethoven:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15736

Relative to the above quote by Chris, Brendel points out that Mozart, Haydn and J.S. Bach all had many pots cooking on the stove at one time, to strict deadlines, and therefore may have let some mediocre movements slip by into their ouvres. Whereas although Beethoven also was usually juggling works (and publishers), he was perhaps more self-consciously an Artist with a capital A than the others, and took care to let NOTHING in that was not of first quality. Unlike Bach and Haydn, he was his own boss and could set his own schedule. Although Mozart was also his own boss, his career was a frantic and pathetic search for ever more commissions.

[yenl]

Mozart's music

Well someone said Mozart's music cannot measure up to Beethoven's, and while she stated that she did not want to start an argument, I want to also state my own personal opinion: Mozart to me is the greatest composer who ever walked the face of this earth, and Beethoven simply cannot compare. I tried and tried to listen to Beethoven's chamber music, and I have to return quickly to Mozart's much more compelling works. Those of you who prefer Beethoven at least need to consider the fact that Mozart's life was cut short, what towering works would he have provided later generations with, had he lived to the ripe old age of 57 (I believe Beethoven was 57 when he died)?

Yen

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by yenl:
Well someone said Mozart's music cannot measure up to Beethoven's, and while she stated that she did not want to start an argument, I want to also state my own personal opinion: Mozart to me is the greatest composer who ever walked the face of this earth, and Beethoven simply cannot compare. I tried and tried to listen to Beethoven's chamber music, and I have to return quickly to Mozart's much more compelling works. Those of you who prefer Beethoven at least need to consider the fact that Mozart's life was cut short, what towering works would he have provided later generations with, had he lived to the ripe old age of 57 (I believe Beethoven was 57 when he died)?

Yen

I find most of Mozart's works somewhat lacking also, with some wonderful exceptions. To me this message is testimony to what I've been trying to say on the Handel vs. Bach thread, which is that composers reach different people to different extents. I don't believe a truly objective ranking can be made.

[Chris]

While I love Mozart's music very much, I very definitely see Beethoven as the superior composer. To me it seems that Beethoven never wrote a single note that wasn't carefully considered and absolutely perfect in its place. Mozart on the other hand, had quite a bit of stuff that was just kind of thrown out there, without much care, or so it seems to my ears. Sometimes when I am listening to Mozart, I think to myself, "How wonderful it would have been if he had done this instead." But with Beethoven, every bit of potential seems painstakingly squeezed from the material, making each individual work a true labor of love. That, to me, is the difference.

[Chris]

Bump to account for time bug.

Oh, and I know Brendel - I like his work very much.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
While I love Mozart's music very much, I very definitely see Beethoven as the superior composer. To me it seems that Beethoven never wrote a single note that wasn't carefully considered and absolutely perfect in its place. Mozart on the other hand, had quite a bit of stuff that was just kind of thrown out there, without much care, or so it seems to my ears. Sometimes when I am listening to Mozart, I think to myself, "How wonderful it would have been if he had done this instead." But with Beethoven, every bit of potential seems painstakingly squeezed from the material, making each individual work a true labor of love. That, to me, is the difference.

Well said Chris.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Bump to account for time bug.

Oh, and I know Brendel - I like his work very much.

Not so well said Chris.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Thanks. Or shut up. Or something.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Not so well said Chris.

I like Brendel's playing also.

Rod, who would YOU recommend for the Beethoven piano sonatas (or should I say pianoforte sonatas)?

[Rod]

Originally posted by yenl:
Well someone said Mozart's music cannot measure up to Beethoven's, and while she stated that she did not want to start an argument, I want to also state my own personal opinion: Mozart to me is the greatest composer who ever walked the face of this earth, and Beethoven simply cannot compare. I tried and tried to listen to Beethoven's chamber music, and I have to return quickly to Mozart's much more compelling works. Those of you who prefer Beethoven at least need to consider the fact that Mozart's life was cut short, what towering works would he have provided later generations with, had he lived to the ripe old age of 57 (I believe Beethoven was 57 when he died)?

Yen

I ask you to consider Beethovens compositions up to the age of Mozart's death - I think Beethoven's concept of the sonata and other chamber music was way ahead of Mozart's or anybodies during this time - the quality of the ideas and the disciplined manner of their application within the framework of sonata form. I can say the same for the Symphony and Concerto too. I've often talked about Beethoven's quintet for piano and winds (op16), which is regularly compared with Mozart's by the critics, always to Beethoven's disadvantage. Yet I hear both compositions on both modern and period instruments and I simply cannot accept this position from the establishment. I suggest it is Beethoven's that is the superior work.

That being said, I have also often said that Beethoven is the worst performed composer of them all. He was by nature the most 'con brio' of composers, yet usually what we hear is slothfull and dull, I presume resulting from the performers/conductors spending too much time with late Romantic music. But this is not Beethoven's fault!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 01, 2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I ask you to consider Beethovens compositions up to the age of Mozart's death - I think Beethoven's concept of the sonata and other chamber music was way ahead of Mozart's or anybodies during this time - the quality of the ideas and the disciplined manner of their application within the framework of sonata form. I can say the same for the Symphony and Concerto too. I've often talked about Beethoven's quintet for piano and winds (op16), which is regularly compared with Mozart's by the critics, always to Beethoven's disadvantage. Yet I hear both compositions on both modern and period instruments and I simply cannot accept this position from the establishment. I suggest it is Beethoven's that is the superior work.

Well said, Rod!

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I like Brendel's playing also.

So do I. I have some CD's of him playing Beethoven's 'Pathetique' & 'Appassioniata'.
Very good indeed!

[SR]

Really a pointless discussion. Both composers were great masters and if you find B or M more appealing to you fine, but don't get your opinion confused with fact. Both men are doubtless in the top 5, that is all that matters to me. BTW which is the better color yellow or blue ?

Steve

[Chris]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I like Brendel's playing also.

Rod, who would YOU recommend for the Beethoven piano sonatas (or should I say pianoforte sonatas)?

I believe Rod's choice for the best complete set is Badura-Skoda. A while ago they had his complete sonatas available for download at http://www.mp3.com but I'm not sure if they are still available. Worth checking out.

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
Really a pointless discussion. Both composers were great masters and if you find B or M more appealing to you fine, but don't get your opinion confused with fact. Both men are doubtless in the top 5, that is all that matters to me. BTW which is the better color yellow or blue ?

Steve

I entirely agree! It also applies to the Handel-Bach debate.

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'Man know thyself'