A Beethoven "future figure"

[John Rasmussen]

It appears that 12-tone serialism is a dead end. However, "everything old becomes new again," and I would guess that after a hundred years or so neoclassicism at least will be revived. What seems to be happening more now, however, is a synthesis between European "classical music" and other world musics. One of the best examples is the recently deceased Alan Hovhaness, who by combining classical techniques with Japanese, Indian, Korean, and Middle Eastern influences has produced an impressive body of work.

As for LvB's music being mind-altering, I would say that all the best music is, from Carlo Gesualdo to Edgard Varese, from Bach's D minor Toccata and Fugue to The Rite of Spring. Beethoven's Ninth is only the most powerful example.

(BTW, it's not quite accurate to say that no one composed symphonies immediately after Beethoven. Schubert, Mendelssohn and Schumann each wrote symphonies, although of those only Schubert's Ninth comes close to matching Beethoven's power.)

[nickelljromjue]

A Beethoven "future figure"

Thomas Mann's novel, Doktor Faustus, contains a fascinating idea: the "taking back" by Mann's protagonist (modelled on a Nietzsche figure), of the Beethoven Ninth Symphony in order to clear the way for a revolutionary new music, modelled on Arnold Schoenberg--atonality, 12-tone, etc. What, in the structure of music, has made the Ninth Symphony beloved over generations, and Schoenberg a composr for empty halls? In the neoclassical revival, will there be a future Beethoven? Are there living candidates?

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Romjue

[This message has been edited by nickelljromjue (edited October 02, 2002).]

[Forlorna]

The Ninth is primal--especialy in the 1st movement. It has the power to alter brain chemistry. Through accident or genius B gave the world one of its greatest gifts. R. Strauss and Scriabin came close as far as psychological power but LVB has no equal and possibly never will.
After his death, for many decades, composers felt too overshadowed to even attempt composing symphonies. I'm glad they finally did because the late 19th century produced some fine works--but Beethoven still stands above them all.

Twelve-tone and /or atonal, has been around for some time and doesn't seem to catch on. Hindemith did some interesting work. Minimalist music was quite the rage for a time as well. We live in a world where most people cannot differentiate between even a half-step on the piano. I cannot possibly forsee 12-tone music ever becoming popular with anything except a small group.

[Peter]

Atonality is to my mind a failed idea, I think even Schoenberg came to recognise its limitations. I don't think there will be a neo-classical revival as I don't think it ever had a hold on the public imagination. There hasn't been anyone to rival Beethoven's greatness since the 18th century.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Bump to account for time bug.

[Forlorna]

I stand corrected. Yes, there were symphonies composed in the decades after his death. I have read though that many composers felt somewhat inadequate.

[chopithoven]

And what do the musical critics writing here say about Brahms' 4th symphony in e minor?

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
And what do the musical critics writing here say about Brahms' 4th symphony in e minor?

I think it's his best!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think it's his best!

Regarding the discussion about symphonists' writing after Beethoven's death, Brahms delayed starting on his first symphony for years because of Beethoven's example. He said, 'It's difficult when you hear the feet of a giant like Beethoven behind you.'

His First Symphony ends with an ode-to-joy sort of theme like that of Beethoven's Ninth, although without voices. In his later symphonies, he felt confident enough to drop this device.

I like his Third Symphony best myself - especially for the wonderful autumnal color in the orchestration.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Regarding the discussion about symphonists' writing after Beethoven's death, Brahms delayed starting on his first symphony for years because of Beethoven's example. He said, 'It's difficult when you hear the feet of a giant like Beethoven behind you.'

His First Symphony ends with an ode-to-joy sort of theme like that of Beethoven's Ninth, although without voices. In his later symphonies, he felt confident enough to drop this device.

I like his Third Symphony best myself - especially for the wonderful autumnal color in the orchestration.

I also like the 3rd and for some reason it does have an autumnal feel - however the 2nd mov of the 4th is glorious as are the variations in the 4th mov. Certainly Brahms is the greatest symphony composer to come after Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

I enjoy Brahms 3rd and 4th Symphony myself too and over the weekend on my classical radio they played his '6 pieces Opus 118'. The pianist was the 19 yr. old Lang Lang. Just excellent!!

Joy

[nickelljromjue]

As a new discussant, thank you for your responses to my note of Sep. 30.
As a fiction writer (I am not a musician or musicologist), I am attracted to the idea of a bold new musical spirit who, fully cognizant of the giant he wishes to emulate, takes Beethoven as his inspiring basis in a symphonic composition that, in his own age, captures the ravaged soul of the violent 20th century but, in a final movement, points to a recovering world in a new/old credo and firmament of beauty and light.

[AeolianHarp]

The Ninth is primal--especialy in the 1st movement. It has the power to alter brain chemistry. Through accident or genius B gave the world one of its greatest gifts. R. Strauss and Scriabin came close as far as psychological power but LVB has no equal and possibly never will.

Agreed- no symphony comes close to the Ninth, except maybe the 7th and certainly nobody else can equal him! Yes, it does have some powerful effect on the mind and soul, and I'm sure he knew it...

[AeolianHarp]

here hasn't been anyone to rival Beethoven's greatness since the 18th century.

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'Man know thyself'

Not possible Peter- Beethoven is a one off!

[Peter]

Not possible Peter- Beethoven is a one off!

Don't forget this is a reply to a thread of over ten years ago - Interesting to see these old comments resurrected - I don't agree with a lot of what I said then!!