Did Beethoven Invent The Symphony

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The word symphony seems to have meant something quite different after Beethoven reinvented the form.My understanding is that is was music and dance ,what prompted LVB to explore this form?

[Peter]

The title 'father of the symphony' is generally attributed to Haydn, though he didn't actually invent the form. Other Composers such as Sammartini, Stamitz, Wagenseil and Monn played a big part in the development of the Symphony. Also the minuets of Haydn's late symphonies were increasing in tempo and only one step away from the Scherzo. Beethoven's role was really an expansion of the form, not a reinvention.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:
The title 'father of the symphony' is generally attributed to Haydn, though he didn't actually invent the form. Other Composers such as Sammartini, Stamitz, Wagenseil and Monn played a big part in the development of the Symphony. Also the minuets of Haydn's late symphonies were increasing in tempo and only one step away from the Scherzo. Beethoven's role was really an expansion of the form, not a reinvention.

Just to add, the word shymphonie first appeared do designate the overture of Baroque Operas, there was the Italian Sinfonia: Fast part, slow part, Faster recapitulation; and the French Sinfonie: Slow part, fast part, slow recapitulation.
From there, those people Peter mentioned made each part become (of the Italian sinfonia) a separate movement, Haydn introduced formaly the 4th part, a Minuett before the last Fast part. Beethoven changed it to a scherzo.

Just to clarify:
The diference between a Minuet and a Scherzo is little, the composer has more freedom in a scherzo than in a minuet, the minuet is a strict minuet-trio-minuet form, the scherzo may vary more...

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
The title 'father of the symphony' is generally attributed to Haydn, though he didn't actually invent the form. Other Composers such as Sammartini, Stamitz, Wagenseil and Monn played a big part in the development of the Symphony. Also the minuets of Haydn's late symphonies were increasing in tempo and only one step away from the Scherzo. Beethoven's role was really an expansion of the form, not a reinvention.

So then did Beethoven actually come up with the idea for the Scherzo form?

Joy

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
So then did Beethoven actually come up with the idea for the Scherzo form?

Joy

Well he didn't - as I mentioned Haydn's minuets had been getter faster, and in the string quartet Op.77 no.1 the 2nd mov is a one in the bar scherzo. The Scherzo form is the same as the minuet (i.e central trio)

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
The title 'father of the symphony' is generally attributed to Haydn, though he didn't actually invent the form. Other Composers such as Sammartini, Stamitz, Wagenseil and Monn played a big part in the development of the Symphony. Also the minuets of Haydn's late symphonies were increasing in tempo and only one step away from the Scherzo. Beethoven's role was really an expansion of the form, not a reinvention.

I was under the impression that J.S Bach's sons, Carl Phillip Emmanuel, Wilhelm Friedman, and especially the 'London' Bach, Johann Christian, were also credited with the transition from Baroque to Classical style and with contributing to the development of the symphony. Am I mistaken?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I was under the impression that J.S Bach's sons, Carl Phillip Emmanuel, Wilhelm Friedman, and especially the 'London' Bach, Johann Christian, were also credited with the transition from Baroque to Classical style and with contributing to the development of the symphony. Am I mistaken?

Of course the Bach sons were very important transitional composers from the Baroque to Classical and this style is known as 'style-galant' (c.1730-c.1770). The main contribution was from C.P.E Bach who developed sonata form. Yes J.C.Bach wrote symphonies which had an influence on the young Mozart, but they were of a later date and not so important as those of Stamitz.

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'Man know thyself'

[John Rasmussen]

I'm not sure you can say that anyone invented the symphony. Like so much else in music, the symphony has evolved rather than been invented; unlike opera, whose inventors we know (I've forgotten their names but they were early Italian Baroque), or the string quartet which really was fathered by Haydn.

Beethoven's contribution was to transform the symphony from light entertainment to a high form capable of expressing the artist's whole soul. Mozart and Haydn's later symphonies pointed the way, but Beethoven cast the mold for later symphonists--at least those who aspired to create more than background music or tone pictures.

[Peter]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I'm not sure you can say that anyone invented the symphony. Like so much else in music, the symphony has evolved rather than been invented; unlike opera, whose inventors we know (I've forgotten their names but they were early Italian Baroque), or the string quartet which really was fathered by Haydn.

Beethoven's contribution was to transform the symphony from light entertainment to a high form capable of expressing the artist's whole soul. Mozart and Haydn's later symphonies pointed the way, but Beethoven cast the mold for later symphonists--at least those who aspired to create more than background music or tone pictures.

I think Haydn and Mozart did more than point the way - even middle Haydn symphonies such as the 'Farewell' are far more than light entertainment. It is the Romantic era's failure to acknowledge this that leads to the mistaken view that the overblown Symphonies of Mahler are somehow the summit of symphonic writing - Beethoven was the summit!

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'Man know thyself'