Haydn about Beethoven

[chopithoven]

Haydn said this about Beethoven according to Emil Ludwig's biography:

In your works we will always find something uncommon, beautiful things, but also something singular and dark, because you are somber ans singular. In my works something joyous can be frequently found, because I'm like that. Mi natural happiness cannot be destroyed by anything, not even by my wife."

The description seems to be correct, but the ending joke about Haydn's wife, was really transmitted to Beethoven?

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Good question my friend.

I didn't read that one....I bet you peter, rod and chris know about that one.

[Andrea]

Papa Haydn had this to say about Beethoven in a letter he wrote on 23 Nov. 1793 to the Archbishop and Elector, Max Franz:

"I am taking the liberty of sending to you your Reverence in all humility a few pieces of music, a quintet, an eight-voice Parthie, an oboe concerto, a set of variations for the piano and a fugue composed by my dear pupil Beethoven who was so graciously entrusted to me. They will, I flatter myself, be graciously accepted by your Reverence as evidence of his diligence beyond the scope of his own studies. On the basis of these pieces, expert and amateur alike cannot but admit that Beethoven will in time become one of the greatest musical artists in Europe, and I shall be proud to call myself his teacher."

[Peter]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Papa Haydn had this to say about Beethoven in a letter he wrote on 23 Nov. 1793 to the Archbishop and Elector, Max Franz:

"I am taking the liberty of sending to you your Reverence in all humility a few pieces of music, a quintet, an eight-voice Parthie, an oboe concerto, a set of variations for the piano and a fugue composed by my dear pupil Beethoven who was so graciously entrusted to me. They will, I flatter myself, be graciously accepted by your Reverence as evidence of his diligence beyond the scope of his own studies. On the basis of these pieces, expert and amateur alike cannot but admit that Beethoven will in time become one of the greatest musical artists in Europe, and I shall be proud to call myself his teacher."

And the Elector wasn't that impressed, rightly pointing out that some of the works had been written earlier in Bonn, before Haydn became Beethoven's 'teacher'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Haydn said this about Beethoven according to Emil Ludwig's biography:

In your works we will always find something uncommon, beautiful things, but also something singular and dark, because you are somber ans singular. In my works something joyous can be frequently found, because I'm like that. Mi natural happiness cannot be destroyed by anything, not even by my wife."

The description seems to be correct, but the ending joke about Haydn's wife, was really transmitted to Beethoven?

I've never seen this quote before. Do you know the circumstances in which Haydn said these words? I see no particular problem with the reference to the wife, considering (if the quote is true and accurate) the words came from the husband.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've never seen this quote before. Do you know the circumstances in which Haydn said these words? I see no particular problem with the reference to the wife, considering (if the quote is true and accurate) the words came from the husband.

The book says that they were transmitted by a woman who heard them from Haydn at a certain ball or gathering, and that after saying them, the people asked Haydn to repeat them. They are at the end of a longer thought, which says (transcribed from the biography):

"You will create a greater art that anybody has created before, because you have thoughts which nobody has had. You will never sacrifice a beautiful idea to a tyrannic rule, and you will do well on that. But you must sacrifice the rules to your whims. Because you give me the impression of having several minds and several hearts.
In your works we will always find something uncommon, beautiful things, but also something singular and dark, because you are somber and singular. In my works something joyous can be frequently found, because I'm like that. Mi natural happiness cannot be destroyed by anything, not even by my wife."

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited September 05, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
[B] "Mi natural happiness cannot be destroyed by anything, not even by my wife."

This last line is certainly plausible as Haydn was not happily married - his wife Maria Anna Keller is described as 'not good-looking, ill-natured, totally indifferent to music, and quite incapable of providing either a home or children'. She is said to have used his manuscripts as hair curlers and lining to pastry tins! - quite a catch by all accounts!!

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
This last line is certainly plausible as Haydn was not happily married - his wife Maria Anna Keller is described as 'not good-looking, ill-natured, totally indifferent to music, and quite incapable of providing either a home or children'. She is said to have used his manuscripts as hair curlers and lining to pastry tins! - quite a catch by all accounts!!

This is very funny!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This last line is certainly plausible as Haydn was not happily married - his wife Maria Anna Keller is described as 'not good-looking, ill-natured, totally indifferent to music, and quite incapable of providing either a home or children'. She is said to have used his manuscripts as hair curlers and lining to pastry tins! - quite a catch by all accounts!!

So what DID she have going for her? Power? Influence? Money? It seems that Haydn was free of the curse of taste 'above his station' that Beethoven was inflicted with.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
So what DID she have going for her? Power? Influence? Money? It seems that Haydn was free of the curse of taste 'above his station' that Beethoven was inflicted with.

I don't think she had power, influence or money - she was as in Mozart's case, 2nd choice, the elder sister having been the preferred option!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think she had power, influence or money - she was as in Mozart's case, 2nd choice, the elder sister having been the preferred option!

'Preferred option'. Well put! It's hard playing second fiddle! Maybe that's why she was so 'exasperating' so to speak!!

Joy