Beethoven and Napoleon

[Peter]

It seems extraordinary to me, not that Beethoven tore up the dedication of the Eroica to Bonaparte, but that he ever considered dedicating it to him in the first place. 4 years earlier in 1800, Napoleon had been made first consul, in effect total dictator, so the additional title of Emperor seems rather academic. Here was a man who had waged war all over Europe in a quite ruthless manner, against Austria, Germany and England - a country Beethoven was known to admire. Even as late as 1810 he was contemplating dedicating the mass in C to Napoleon. I think Beethoven's idealistic belief in the French Revolution must have blinded him to the reality of a man who was actually trouncing the very principles of freedom and equality. Not until 1813 does he seem to have really seen the light with Wellingtons sieg. I should have thought that a more fitting dedicatee of the Eroica would have been Nelson.

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'Man know thyself'

[Andrea]

Beethoven, according to Ries, had likened Napoleon to the greatest Roman consuls. Later, in 1852, Dr. Andreas Bertolini stated:"The first idea for the Eroica Sym. came to Beethoven from Bonaparte's expedition to Egypt; the rumour of Nelson's death in the Battle of Aboukir occasioned the Funeral March." In the beginning, Beethoven had a belief in the secular, fraternal utopia which Napoleon-one "bon prince"-had betrayed.

In 1802 Beethoven expressed his
disillusionment with Bonaparte when he was approached by Hoffmeister to compose a sonata in honor of Napoleon or with the French Revolution. This was Beethoven's reply to this offer, dated 8 April 1802:
"Has the devil got hold of you all, Gentlemen?-that you suggest that I should compose such a sonata. Well, perhaps at the time of the Revolutionary fever-such a thing might have been possible, but now, when everything is trying to slip back into the old rut, now that Bonaparte has concluded his Concordat with the Pope-to write a sonata of that kind?...But good Heavens, such a sonata-in these newly developing Christian times-Ho ho-there you must leave me out-you won't get anything from me-..."

So now the question arises, why did Beethoven decide to compose a bonaparte sym. not long after he wrote this letter to Hoffmeister? I read that he had at this time thought about moving to Paris. If that was the case I am soooooo happy that Beethoven never ended up going to Paris. We here in Vienna would have lost one of our best loved composers and who knows what would have happened to him there and maybe how Paris would have affected his music.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
It seems extraordinary to me, not that Beethoven tore up the dedication of the Eroica to Bonaparte, but that he ever considered dedicating it to him in the first place. 4 years earlier in 1800, Napoleon had been made first consul, in effect total dictator, so the additional title of Emperor seems rather academic. Here was a man who had waged war all over Europe in a quite ruthless manner, against Austria, Germany and England - a country Beethoven was known to admire. Even as late as 1810 he was contemplating dedicating the mass in C to Napoleon. I think Beethoven's idealistic belief in the French Revolution must have blinded him to the reality of a man who was actually trouncing the very principles of freedom and equality. Not until 1813 does he seem to have really seen the light with Wellingtons sieg. I should have thought that a more fitting dedicatee of the Eroica would have been Nelson.

Considering the revolutionary French were at war with the British and others for a long time before the composition of the Eroica, during the 1790s, this must not have been an issue for Beethoven. The fact that he did not dedicate it to a British leader perhaps indicates that at the time he though that Napoleon was on the 'good guys' side, and that the establishment needed a good kicking. I think B admired a man who could come from nothing to being the most powerful man in Europe, with a great strength of character and a kind of moral purpose to everything he did. One must also consider that at the time the existing alternatives to Napoleon were hardly enlightened in themselves, perhaps even less so for the ordinary man. I am guessing this is why his opinion of N warmed in later years, but I agree the whole issue is not easily explainable.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
It seems extraordinary to me, not that Beethoven tore up the dedication of the Eroica to Bonaparte,

Perhaps someone can clear up something for once and for all. I have heard two accounts regarding the dedication of the Eroica in regards to Beethoven's changing it. First, that he tore the dedication sheet and second that he simply rubbed it out and wrote the current dedication. Which is true? It seems that I recall seeing a picture of the dedicatory page with the name of Napolean rubbed out.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Perhaps someone can clear up something for once and for all. I have heard two accounts regarding the dedication of the Eroica in regards to Beethoven's changing it. First, that he tore the dedication sheet and second that he simply rubbed it out and wrote the current dedication. Which is true? It seems that I recall seeing a picture of the dedicatory page with the name of Napolean rubbed out.

It was the title page of B's own copy of the score that Ries saw Beethoven tear up. Also on the new title page for this score Beethoven later added the words in pencil 'Geschrieben auf Bonaparte' and these were never erased. Ries states that the name 'Eroica' was then given immediately to the Symphony, but this did not come about until 2 years after this event.

The scratching out of the name Bonaparte occurred on another copy of the score, possibly the one intended for the publishers?

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Considering the revolutionary French were at war with the British and others for a long time before the composition of the Eroica, during the 1790s, this must not have been an issue for Beethoven. The fact that he did not dedicate it to a British leader perhaps indicates that at the time he though that Napoleon was on the 'good guys' side, and that the establishment needed a good kicking. I think B admired a man who could come from nothing to being the most powerful man in Europe, with a great strength of character and a kind of moral purpose to everything he did. One must also consider that at the time the existing alternatives to Napoleon were hardly enlightened in themselves, perhaps even less so for the ordinary man. I am guessing this is why his opinion of N warmed in later years, but I agree the whole issue is not easily explainable.

It still seems odd to me that at the very time when Vienna was being bombarded by the French in 1809 and in Beethoven's own words there was 'nothing but misery and human suffering all around', he was giving a cordial reception to Napoleon's ambassador the Baron de Tremont and hinting that he would be flattered by any mark of Napoleon's esteem.

How times and warfare have changed, can anyone imagine the reactions in 1916 if Elgar had been dining with the German ambassador and hinting that he would be honoured by any mark of Kaiser Wilhelm's esteem?

It must be simply that Beethoven misguidedly believed Napoleon to be the standard bearer of Liberte, Egalite and fraternite, and that these ideals blinded him to the realities of the situation.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

It must be simply that Beethoven misguidedly believed Napoleon to be the standard bearer of Liberte, Egalite and fraternite, and that these ideals blinded him to the realities of the situation.

Well, for me the jury is still out on Napoleon, I even felt compelled to visit his grave when I visited Paris in June. If he had succeeded in crushing the ruling classes of Europe, who had a capacity for egotism and warmongering themselves, we would never have had World War One, that's for certain. Also alot of his ideas for government and administration were very positive in my opinion. I seriously doubt if Europe would have been any worse off had he succeeded, look what happened as a result of him failing!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 29, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, for me the jury is still out on Napoleon, I even felt compelled to visit his grave when I visited Paris in June. If he had succeeded in crushing the ruling classes of Europe, who had a capacity for egotism and warmongering themselves, we would never have had World War One, that's for certain. Also alot of his ideas for government and administration were very positive in my opinion. I seriously doubt if Europe would have been any worse off had he succeeded, look what happened as a result of him failing!

Well I have often thought this myself, it is arguable that World wars I and II would not have happened had Napoleon not been defeated at Waterloo - However Napoleon was a dictator through and through and had utter contempt for democracy. Despite my Republican sentiments, England was certainly not better off under Cromwell.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well I have often thought this myself, it is arguable that World wars I and II would not have happened had Napoleon not been defeated at Waterloo - However Napoleon was a dictator through and through and had utter contempt for democracy. Despite my Republican sentiments, England was certainly not better off under Cromwell.

I think you should consider the plight of the common man in Europe at that time. I doubt if the average East Londoner living in a rat infested hovel would have appreciated this Democracy you imply was under threat from Napoleon. Concerning Cromwell, he too has my sympathy to a fair degree. He certainly was a man of high principles in everything he did, more than I can say for the average parliamentarian since!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think you should consider the plight of the common man in Europe at that time. I doubt if the average East Londoner living in a rat infested hovel would have appreciated this Democracy you imply was under threat from Napoleon. Concerning Cromwell, he too has my sympathy to a fair degree. He certainly was a man of high principles in everything he did, more than I can say for the average parliamentarian since!

I agree, but Beethoven expressed admiration for England primarily because of our parliamentary system, which as you state was (and still is in my opinion) far from democratic. I would also say that I doubt that your average Frenchman of the time living in equal squalor would have known much Liberte, fraternite or egalite.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree, but Beethoven expressed admiration for England primarily because of our parliamentary system, which as you state was (and still is in my opinion) far from democratic. I would also say that I doubt that your average Frenchman of the time living in equal squalor would have known much Liberte, fraternite or egalite.

Well, I'm no expert in this and we're going totally off subject, but I don't know what effect the revolution had on the quality of life of ordinary Parisians. All I can say is that later the whole of Europe was thrown into turmoil by a collection of inbred kings and militaristic nobility that never would have never been born if Napoleon had had his way. Do you think the preservation of the establishment was worth all this destruction?



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I'm no expert in this and we're going totally off subject, but I don't know what effect the revolution had on the quality of life of ordinary Parisians. All I can say is that later the whole of Europe was thrown into turmoil by a collection of inbred kings and militaristic nobility that never would have never been born if Napoleon had had his way. Do you think the preservation of the establishment was worth all this destruction?

No - war is never worth it, and that applied then as now. The ideals of the french revolution were swallowed up in a blood bath - Napoleon was a product not the cause of the revolution, and he certainly did not represent its ideals. Revolution and war never achieve their aims, the Russian people can vouch for how the overthrow of the old order in 1917, didn't bring Utopia. Yet look how yet again a relatively peaceful collapse of communism in Eastern Europe has offered new hope to millions.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
No - war is never worth it, and that applied then as now. The ideals of the french revolution were swallowed up in a blood bath - Napoleon was a product not the cause of the revolution, and he certainly did not represent its ideals. Revolution and war never achieve their aims, the Russian people can vouch for how the overthrow of the old order in 1917, didn't bring Utopia. Yet look how yet again a relatively peaceful collapse of communism in Eastern Europe has offered new hope to millions.

Well, being a cowardly type I'm always in favour of peaceful revolution. But I don't think such a concept existed in Beethoven's day!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, being a cowardly type I'm always in favour of peaceful revolution. But I don't think such a concept existed in Beethoven's day!

Napoleon was a srongman who took over and restored order and purpose when the French Revolution was falling apart from its own terroristic excesses. The strongman or dictator who saves a revolution, or a state, from dissolution has often been very attractive to many of his contemporaries. Julius Caesar and Lenin are good examples. Many (Hamilton foremost)wanted Washington to become king in the 1790s, but he was too sensible to do so. Franklin D. Roosevelt probably saved capitalism in the US, but did it by making a some quasi-dictatorial end-runs around the Constitution. And look how many well-meaning leftists in the 1930s admired and were betrayed by Stalin.

Based on the quotes from Beethoven you have all put up, it seems like he may have wavered on Napoleon, hating him one week and admiring him a week later. Until the later stages of the Napoleonic Wars, many idealistic people all over Europe admired and supported Napoleon even after he became dictator. After 200 years of failed dictatorial experiments, everyone now knows that democracy is paramount - but before hindsight, it seems to have been all too possible to believe in the strongman.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

....Based on the quotes from Beethoven you have all put up, it seems like he may have wavered on Napoleon, hating him one week and admiring him a week later. Until the later stages of the Napoleonic Wars, many idealistic people all over Europe admired and supported Napoleon even after he became dictator. After 200 years of failed dictatorial experiments, everyone now knows that democracy is paramount - but before hindsight, it seems to have been all too possible to believe in the strongman.

Yes, I think in the absence of any further evidence from B this is the only way we can look at it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin