Beginning Beethoven

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, this is the crux of the whole issue of repeats with Beethoven. Tempos in general are so underpaced that the inclusion of the repeat would be judged as making the movement too long and boring for the listener. The problem is not however the repeat, but the tempo. The classic example is with the Archduke scherzo - this movement is played so pathetically lame that the repeat of the trio section is almost never observed. Yet a far swifter performance (such as that played by the Castle Trio on Virgin) makes the inclusion of the repeat almost manditory, and much to the movement's benefit.

I have to agree totally with that! The musical ideas, anyway, are so interesting to me, at least, that I can't get enough of it without the repeats.

[Fluffy]

my favorite peices of Beethoven, are the Moonlight sonata, and the pathetique. As far as Mozart he is my second favorite composer next to Beethoven. I read a really good book on him. It was called Mozart by Marcia Davenport. I also read a very good book on Beethoven that got my interested in him, if you would like to read it I can find it and tell you what the title was.

[Andrea]

You know that it doesn't surprise me in the least that all of us who love Beethoven, also have Mozart as our second favorite composer. Wolfgang as always been a close second for me too.

Living here in Vienna you can still find a love of Mozart. He is considered a homeboy here even though he came from Salzburg. You'll see his image more here than Beethoven's (I think since he came from Germany). But you would be surprised to see how many Japanese tourists come here to Heiligenstadt to see the house where Beethoven wrote his sym. #2 and his Heiligenstadt Testament.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
You know that it doesn't surprise me in the least that all of us who love Beethoven, also have Mozart as our second favorite composer. Wolfgang as always been a close second for me too.

Well, this is not the case with me. I'm afraid I have to agree with Beethoven that it is Handel who towers over the others, even Mozart.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, this is not the case with me. I'm afraid I have to agree with Beethoven that it is Handel who towers over the others, even Mozart.

You seem to like to twist Beethoven's admiration for Handel to mean that he thought little of anyone else - that is purely your own interpretation!

Beethoven's admiration for Mozart and Bach was far far greater than your own, so what do we make of that?!!!!!!! I have never heard a word of praise from you for Mozart, Bach or Haydn, in fact quite the opposite implying that perhaps you think Beethoven was wrong about these great men, in which case I suggest Beethoven had the better judgement!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited August 13, 2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You seem to like to twist Beethoven's admiration for Handel to mean that he thought little of anyone else - that is purely your own interpretation!

Beethoven's admiration for Mozart and Bach was far far greater than your own, so what do we make of that?!!!!!!! I have never heard a word of praise from you for Mozart, Bach or Haydn, in fact quite the opposite implying that perhaps you think Beethoven was wrong about these great men, in which case I suggest Beethoven had the better judgement!

Peter, we were talking about the number two position. You will note that only Mozart was being referred to before my comment! You will recall from my statements in times gone by that in certain respects I rate Handel Number 1!! Certainly I would say his is the king of stage music (opera, oratorio and the like) by sheer volume of large scale quality productions, on average far more interesting than Mozart's to my ears, many of which are only just being 're-appreciated' now.

For the record I have praised Haydn's symphonies in the past, and still rate Mozart above the Romantics of course, but my reaction towards M is only negative to the extent that I believe he is somewhat overrated these days (whereas Handel is underrated). I have never denied B's appreciation of Mozart, but we are talking absolutes here - at a dinner table discussion Beethoven was drawn as to why he did not rate Mozart the champion, to which Beethoven replied 'on Olympus everyone knows who is King!'. And how many times have we heard B state that H was 'the greatest composer who ever lived'? Please bear in mind the context in which we are discussing. Overall this does not conflict with Beethoven's own position.

Many people have Mozart or Bach as their number 1 composer and not Beethoven. What do you make of that Peter?!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 13, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Many people have Mozart or Bach as their number 1 composer and not Beethoven. What do you make of that Peter?!

I have no problem with that simply because I don't regard it as a competition - I have stated before that on this level of greatness it is very hard (and pointless) to choose between Bach, Handel, Mozart and Beethoven - they are all composers on the highest level.

I agree that Handel is underrated, but not that Mozart is overrated! As to the number of times B stated H was the greatest composer, I know of 3 such references, there are also references to Bach as the Immortal god of harmony and he also had no qualms about mentioning Mozart, Bach and Handel in the same breath.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have no problem with that simply because I don't regard it as a competition - I have stated before that on this level of greatness it is very hard (and pointless) to choose between Bach, Handel, Mozart and Beethoven - they are all composers on the highest level.

I agree that Handel is underrated, but not that Mozart is overrated! As to the number of times B stated H was the greatest composer, I know of 3 such references, there are also references to Bach as the Immortal god of harmony and he also had no qualms about mentioning Mozart, Bach and Handel in the same breath.

Beethoven himself was quite happy to choose a 'champion', so I have no problem if we do the same.

Those who rate Mozart above Beethoven (and there are many) I would say by default are overrating Mozart.

Of course B had praise for various other composers from time to time. But it seems you are now even trying to question the historical truth of Beethoven's selection of Handel as the supreme composer? Please to not go down this path Peter!

Of course we are in a different position to judge as Beethoven never included himself in the selection box. But his own selection was ultimately very clear.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 13, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Beethoven himself was quite happy to choose a 'champion', so I have no problem if we do the same.

Those who rate Mozart above Beethoven (and there are many) I would say by default are overrating Mozart.

Of course B had praise for various other composers from time to time. But it seems you are now even trying to question the historical truth of Beethoven's selection of Handel as the supreme composer? Please to not go down this path Peter!

Of course we are in a different position to judge as Beethoven never included himself in the selection box. But his own selection was ultimately very clear.

Again you are trying to twist words - I accept that Beethoven regarded Handel as the greatest composer - I also know he regarded Mozart and Bach as very great composers! Beethoven's choice of greatest composer obviously does not include the 175 years since his death and is therefore flawed!

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'Man know thyself'

[Andrea]

Boys! Boys! This is starting to look like "Celebrity Composer Death Match"! You could be going on forever with this topic, trying to top one another. Now be nice and shake hands and be friends again.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Again you are trying to twist words - I accept that Beethoven regarded Handel as the greatest composer - I also know he regarded Mozart and Bach as very great composers!

Well, your quote I relate here gave me the impression you were trying to water down the significance of B comments concerning Handel - "As to the number of times B stated H was the greatest composer, I know of 3 such references, there are also references to Bach as the Immortal god of harmony and he also had no qualms about mentioning Mozart, Bach and Handel in the same breath."

I noticed you did not complain when Mozart was being discussed as everyones second favourite, but all hell brakes loose when I mention Handel.

Originally posted by Peter:

Beethoven's choice of greatest composer obviously does not include the 175 years since his death and is therefore flawed!

I said that we can judge from a different standpoint to Beethoven, but I don't see how you can judge B's opinion to be flawed. Quite frankly from what I've heard no composer from within these 175 years is worthy of being considered.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Boys! Boys! This is starting to look like "Celebrity Composer Death Match"! You could be going on forever with this topic, trying to top one another. Now be nice and shake hands and be friends again.

There is no argument on this topic concerning Beethoven's favourite, from at least 1817 to virtually his death Beethoven repeatedly stated that he thought Handel was the greatest composer. This was the only point I was making and is a clear fact. I presume he demoted Mozart to 'number 2' during this time. I do not know why Peter is making a issue of it. He may think the excercise is pointless and he may be right, but Beethoven repeatedly made a clear preference so one must ask why he did that. My only conclusion is that he thought Handel had something that the others did not to a fairly significant degree.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 14, 2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Andrea:
Boys! Boys! This is starting to look like "Celebrity Composer Death Match"! You could be going on forever with this topic, trying to top one another. Now be nice and shake hands and be friends again.

Don't worry Andrea - this is quite tame by our standards and I'm sure we're mature enough not to fall out! Rod knows full well that I respect his views (though I don't obviously always agree) - this is what lively debate is all about.

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Andrea:
You could be going on forever with this topic, trying to top one another.

Dear Andrea,

How new you must be here.....ah, such is the innocence of youth. And anyway, we all know that Harrison Birtwistle is the greatest composer.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, your quote I relate here gave me the impression you were trying to water down the significance of B comments concerning Handel - "As to the number of times B stated H was the greatest composer, I know of 3 such references, there are also references to Bach as the Immortal god of harmony and he also had no qualms about mentioning Mozart, Bach and Handel in the same breath."

I noticed you did not complain when Mozart was being discussed as everyones second favourite, but all hell brakes loose when I mention Handel.

Well I can only think of 3 quotes - how many more are there? I didn't mean to imply that had any bearing on B's appreciation of Handel which as you say is well documented. My point is only in reference to the fact that you constantly trumpet the fact that Handel was B's favourite but you casually dismiss the fact that he also had very high regard for Mozart and Bach, both of whom you discuss as though they were 3rd raters!