Opus 31/#3

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:

Well, they had some nerve! I bet Handel wasn't all that happy about it either unless that was the norm and the composers were used to it.

I think he would have been happy with the fact that an 'official' edition of any kind had been published, such was the scourge of music piracy in those days.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I think he would have been happy with the fact that an 'official' edition of any kind had been published, such was the scourge of music piracy in those days.

Thank goodness for copyright laws!

[PDG]

Originally posted by Michael:
Opus 31 No. 3 is often nicknamed "The Hunt" as has been mentioned above, but I believe in Germany it is known as "Die Frage" or "The Question" because of the effect produced by the opening notes.
Antony Hopkins (the composer) calls the sonata "The Case of the Missing First Subject" and has written a very interesting - though very technical - article on it. It's a bit beyond me but I've struggled through it.
Anyway, he maintains that there is no recognizable First subject in the opening movement. It's not a criticism of the piece - just another of the many original traits in the whole work.
Another interesting fact is that the Trio section of the third movement was used as the basis of a two-piano set of variations by Saint-Saens.
Something PDG mentioned suggests there may be a Russian flavour to this movement. He said it reminded him of "The Carnival is Over" which itself was swiped from a Russian folk-song. Just a thought. (Now removing anorak).

Michael

In France (and elsewhere), the sonata is known as La Chasse, and I don't think a chase is quite the same thing as a hunt. I mean I used to chase girls at school, but I didn't hunt them.....oh, hang on.....It IS the same thing!!


Don't quite follow with the 'missing first subject' view - much of B's music grows out of the simplest of ideas without becoming bogged down in impossibly long melody lines, which have no chance of satisfactorily resolving themselves. I hear a first subject in this movement, anyway.

Interesting about Saint-Saens.

And I used to be an anorak, Michael. Ahh...

"Those were the days, my friend....."





[This message has been edited by PDG (edited July 26, 2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by PDG:

Don't quite follow with the 'missing first subject' view - much of B's music grows out of the simplest of ideas without becoming bogged down in impossibly long melody lines, which have no chance of satisfactorily resolving themselves. I hear a first subject in this movement, anyway.


[This message has been edited by PDG (edited July 26, 2002).]

I might add, too, that the opening bars are certainly not conventional in regards to what everyone else was doing at the time. This is reminiscent of the 1st Symphony, opening on a discord. It appears to me that the first subject runs from measure 6 to measure 16, with the first 5 as an intro.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
[B] I might add, too, that the opening bars are certainly not conventional in regards to what everyone else was doing at the time.
B]

Which is typical Beethoven not being conventional.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I might add, too, that the opening bars are certainly not conventional in regards to what everyone else was doing at the time. This is reminiscent of the 1st Symphony, opening on a discord. It appears to me that the first subject runs from measure 6 to measure 16, with the first 5 as an intro.

I think the very first bars are the first subject and not an introduction - they are developed as such. Really I suppose it is a motto.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the very first bars are the first subject and not an introduction - they are developed as such. Really I suppose it is a motto.

Please explain 'motto' for us less than musically inclined. Thanks!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think the very first bars are the first subject and not an introduction - they are developed as such. Really I suppose it is a motto.

I'd have to disagree, at least in part, here. The measures I mentioned are more phrase oriented without the opening bars. The motto serves simply as an attention getter (similar to the opening chords of the 3rd Symphony and the opening motive of the 5th) and as a modulation to the home key. Once the cadence is established then the real phrase begins in the home key. However, I feel that the motto is more significant to the whole than what I term as the first subject. But such things are not unlike Beethoven.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I'd have to disagree, at least in part, here. The measures I mentioned are more phrase oriented without the opening bars. The motto serves simply as an attention getter (similar to the opening chords of the 3rd Symphony and the opening motive of the 5th) and as a modulation to the home key. Once the cadence is established then the real phrase begins in the home key. However, I feel that the motto is more significant to the whole than what I term as the first subject. But such things are not unlike Beethoven.

They are not similar to the opening chords of the Eroica - the opening bars of Op.31/3 are repeated almost exactly in the development and the recapitulation and appear again in the coda - they are far more integral in their meaning than a mere opener, stunning as their effect is though at the beginning.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
They are not similar to the opening chords of the Eroica - the opening bars of Op.31/3 are repeated almost exactly in the development and the recapitulation and appear again in the coda - they are far more integral in their meaning than a mere opener, stunning as their effect is though at the beginning.

My intention in comparing that with the Eroica is simply in terms of a clever opening. After some more study of the opening measures I have to recant what I stated earlier and include those first bars as part of the 1st subject. The reason for doing so is that the idea is repeated (same harmony), beginning at measure 9. Regardless, it provides a nice opening and leads on to another great sonata.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

My intention in comparing that with the Eroica is simply in terms of a clever opening. After some more study of the opening measures I have to recant what I stated earlier and include those first bars as part of the 1st subject. The reason for doing so is that the idea is repeated (same harmony), beginning at measure 9. Regardless, it provides a nice opening and leads on to another great sonata.

I agree here and this is my reasoning for considering the opening bars of the sonata as no mere introduction. Remarkably those two opening chords of the Eroica caused Beethoven some trouble as is evident in the sketch books. Interesting that you compare the two works and the striking openings which have totally opposite effects - in the symphony to establish the tonic key immediately, but in the sonata to create tonal amiguity.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree here and this is my reasoning for considering the opening bars of the sonata as no mere introduction. Remarkably those two opening chords of the Eroica caused Beethoven some trouble as is evident in the sketch books. Interesting that you compare the two works and the striking openings which have totally opposite effects - in the symphony to establish the tonic key immediately, but in the sonata to create tonal amiguity.

Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of these two introductions is the economy of materials in creating the desired effects. Perhaps the Sonata should be better compared to the 1st Symphony for effect. In truth, I hadn't quite thought of the 3rd and the Sonata in terms of being in the same key.