his most beautiful piece?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
These are excellent words with regard to the context I was talking about. Whereas 'ecstacy' and 'orgasm' I can live without thank you kind Sir.

What other words would you use to descirbe such moving music? Just curious! As for me, I'll stick with 'ecstacy' as whenever I'm in a breathless state, that comes to mind. As for 'orgasm' being a lady, I'll not make comment on that!

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Joy:
Chopithoven, I agree! That instrumental interlude is one of my favorite parts. Everytime I hear the 9th, I think of the anecdote of Beethoven having to be turned around by one of the musicians to hear the tremendous applause. It makes it that much more emotional.
I agree! Knowing the stories behind the scenes so to speak can make it that much more emotional.

I always do the same thing! And after remembering that, when the last note sounds, I start crying.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
I tend to avoid usuing this word, Wagerians use it all the time so it must be meaningless in the context of music!

Of course, I was not referring to any kind of sexual feeling as some people thought. I meant ecstasy in an emotional sense, and away of wagnerian beliefs or sensations.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
These are excellent words with regard to the context I was talking about. Whereas 'ecstacy' and 'orgasm' I can live without thank you kind Sir.

Well each to their own, I really see nothing wrong with the use of such words in that context - how would you describe the coda to the finale of the 7th? Never mind, I checked your notes on the Symphony pages and it reads
'we experience two monstrous climaxes'. Isn't this really splitting hairs?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well each to their own, I really see nothing wrong with the use of such words in that context - how would you describe the coda to the finale of the 7th? Never mind, I checked your notes on the Symphony pages and it reads
'we experience two monstrous climaxes'. Isn't this really splitting hairs?

You are the master at splitting hairs Peter! But I was waiting for someone to check the Symphony page! Ok, it is perhaps it is the use of the 'offending' words in the context of the whole sentance or paragraph (ie typically romantic gush) and not just the word in isolation ('orgasm' excepted - only Wagnerians may use that word, for I accept they know no better).


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:

.....'we experience two monstrous climaxes'.

That must have been the night of your life.

:

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
These are excellent words with regard to the context I was talking about. Whereas 'ecstacy' and 'orgasm' I can live without thank you kind Sir.

We do Beethoven a tremendous disservice by comparing his music with the mundane worldly experiences. That which made him great and keeps his music at the top of art is the reaching beyond the normal human experience and achieving a taste of divinity. Many sensual expressions derrive themselves from the base desire of self gratification and I hear none of that sort of thing in any of Beethoven's work--only exultation in the highest principles and the loftiest of goals. As I listened to the finale of the 7th Symphony a week ago I could only think in terms of the noblest and highest forms of expressing pure joy of life. Perhaps we should, indeed, leave the sensual comparisons to the more self-indulgent romantics and keep Beethoven's music in our own minds elevated above the mundane.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:

What other words would you use to descirbe such moving music? Just curious! As for me, I'll stick with 'ecstacy' as whenever I'm in a breathless state, that comes to mind. As for 'orgasm' being a lady, I'll not make comment on that!

You do not use words to describe the emotional effect. Words do not suffice - this is music not prose. If I wanted to read some fancy words I'd read a book! Hence the words I usually find myself using describe the form of the music (eg sinewy), not particularly its emotional impression (even 'climax' is more a physical term than the purely emotional 'ecstacy'), or just general critical terms like 'excellent' or 'rubbish'.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
We do Beethoven a tremendous disservice by comparing his music with the mundane worldly experiences. That which made him great and keeps his music at the top of art is the reaching beyond the normal human experience and achieving a taste of divinity. Many sensual expressions derrive themselves from the base desire of self gratification and I hear none of that sort of thing in any of Beethoven's work--only exultation in the highest principles and the loftiest of goals. As I listened to the finale of the 7th Symphony a week ago I could only think in terms of the noblest and highest forms of expressing pure joy of life. Perhaps we should, indeed, leave the sensual comparisons to the more self-indulgent romantics and keep Beethoven's music in our own minds elevated above the mundane.

This is to a lage degree my point, though I also would avoid using religious terminology (ie 'divinity) as well - this is Man's work!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rutradelusasa]

I can't believe you people! I said that (yes Peter, I was too refering to that amazing coda) in the joy that rises from mine inside whenever I hear those passages to the 7th, not the sexual meaning of it!
If you people are so worried about what I said being wagnerian, I dislike Wagner! I also dislike Mahler and other composer people say they think are the better to make you explode from their pieces. I really regret, if you can't think of a word and come to it's mundane meanings, having said that.

I can change it to "inward and outward burst of joy and overwhelming happiness" if you think it's more polite, to me, it's still the same thing. :-(

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I can't believe you people! I said that (yes Peter, I was too refering to that amazing coda) in the joy that rises from mine inside whenever I hear those passages to the 7th, not the sexual meaning of it!
If you people are so worried about what I said being wagnerian, I dislike Wagner! I also dislike Mahler and other composer people say they think are the better to make you explode from their pieces. I really regret, if you can't think of a word and come to it's mundane meanings, having said that.

I can change it to "inward and outward burst of joy and overwhelming happiness" if you think it's more polite, to me, it's still the same thing. :-(

It is not the same thing, this use of language is quite different. It's not more polite either, it's not a matter of politeness - but actually it is more meaningfull in the context of Beethoven music, but you seem not to be aware of it. But I still doubt you would hear any serious professional music writer talking in such a manner.

Frankly I could never understand why people feel the need to apply stories, programmes or whatever florid emotive descriptions to music, certainly not with instrumental music. Music cannot be pigeon-holed in such a manner. With every word applied the music loses a little more of the free essence that only music can offer.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-16-2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is to a lage degree my point, though I also would avoid using religious terminology (ie 'divinity) as well - this is Man's work!

And is not man with his work reaching for divinity? And who accomplishes that more so than Beethoven in ANY art form?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
I can't believe you people! I said that (yes Peter, I was too refering to that amazing coda) in the joy that rises from mine inside whenever I hear those passages to the 7th, not the sexual meaning of it!

I can change it to "inward and outward burst of joy and overwhelming happiness" if you think it's more polite, to me, it's still the same thing.

I share your sentiments and think the whole thing is a load of fuss about nothing.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

Frankly I could never understand why people feel the need to apply stories, programmes or whatever florid emotive descriptions to music, certainly not with instrumental music. Music cannot be pigeon-holed in such a manner. With every word applied the music loses a little more of the free essence that only music can offer.

As in the previous post I think this is all about nothing, but again your own remarks in the Symphony pages contradict your comments - the following in reference to the finale of the 2nd didn't seem to offend you quite so much -

"A reviewer in 1804 described this finale as 'an uncivilized monster, a wounded dragon, refusing to die while bleeding to death, raging, striking in vain around itself with its agitated tail.' - fanciful, but perhaps appropriate!"


umm...If that's ok, well!!!!


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-17-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But I still doubt you would hear any serious professional music writer talking in such a manner.

Of course not, but that was precisely why the remark was so refreshing and brought a smile to my face! If I were writing programme notes I wouldn't use such terminology - but in a casual internet setting it added a touch of humour and certainly provoked debate! I mentioned the remark to a colleague who teaches Violin - he was highly amused both by the remark and the reaction to it! We really don't have to be quite so serious all the time, after all summer has finally arrived and I'm off for an early morning swim!

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'Man know thyself'