his most beautiful piece?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
As in the previous post I think this is all about nothing, but again your own remarks in the Symphony pages contradict your comments - the following in reference to the finale of the 2nd didn't seem to offend you quite so much -

"A reviewer in 1804 described this finale as 'an uncivilized monster, a wounded dragon, refusing to die while bleeding to death, raging, striking in vain around itself with its agitated tail.' - fanciful, but perhaps appropriate!"


umm...If that's ok, well!!!!

I included that quote because I thought it was bizarre and thus interesting. You notice I say the comment is fanciful, and appropriate only in that this music was unlike anything heard previously and thus we perhaps should not be surprised at such a comment at that time. However you have my clearance to remove the 'appropriate' reference if you like because the context of its use is not clear.

Its an easy trap to fall into, I've been 'guilty' of florid writing myself in the past, but I don't even think of it now. If we all started doing this for every composition I think you'd begin to see my point. I don't recall Beethoven describing his favourite music in such a manner. Remember his reference to a Mozart quartet - he said 'Now that's a work!' or words to that effect. No fanciful imagery there! It's ultimately not a big deal, but I dread to think what is written at the Wagner Forum! My book is now closed on the matter.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-17-2002).]

[Gyökér Solt]

-By my opinion, his inevitably best work is the Quartet in C# minor, op.131.
When his nephew, Karl committed an unsuccessful suicide (with two revolvers simultaneously), Beethoven began to think over what to do with him. Stephan Breuning (op.61!) provided a solution: he was to send to a garrison led by a friend, baron von Stutterheim. In return, Beethoven dedicated his best work to him -characteristically, to a tone-deaf soldier...

[Gyökér Solt]

-By my opinion, his inevitably best work is the Quartet in C# minor, op.131.
When his nephew, Karl committed an unsuccessful suicide (with two revolvers simultaneously), Beethoven began to think over what to do with him. Stephan Breuning (op.61!) provided a solution: he was to send to a garrison led by a friend, baron von Stutterheim. In return, Beethoven dedicated his best work to him -characteristically, to a tone-deaf soldier...

[Rod]

To Gyökér Solt:

Looking at the repetition above i suggest you refresh the screen after you submit your post, then you should see your post. Your browser seems not to be set to auto refresh every page.

Concerning op131 you may be aware that Beethoven thought it his best quartet. I'm not sure that is the general impression these days - people seem to prefer the more immediate appeal of op132, whereas 131 is perhaps a more intellectual work.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I mentioned the remark to a colleague who teaches Violin - he was highly amused both by the remark and the reaction to it!

Opening the book again slightly. Tell your violinist to come to me and I'll teach HIM something. Book closed again.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-17-2002).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is to a lage degree my point, though I also would avoid using religious terminology (ie 'divinity) as well - this is Man's work!

To further my point, allow me to quote Beethoven himself: "There is no loftier mission than to approach the Divinity nearer than other men, and to disseminate the divine rays among mankind." This was written to the Archduke Rudolph in 1823. This comes from the book "Beethoven: Them Man and the Artist as Revealed in his Own Words," edited and translated by Henry Edward Krehbiel (page 105).

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
To further my point, allow me to quote Beethoven himself: "There is no loftier mission than to approach the Divinity nearer than other men, and to disseminate the divine rays among mankind."

I agree with you and Beethoven, but I'm sure the divinity has a sense of humour - Beethoven certainly did.


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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

The divinity has to have a sense of humour after looking at this world for so long. Anyway, I don't understand what the fuss is all about. Beethoven himself used words like the divine, divinity, and such adjectives to describe his work and others. People have to use words like these to describe things. Maybe it's the only way we can express our deep feelings for his works. I don't see anything wrong with that. (To open the book again, I may be sorry I did so)!

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
To further my point, allow me to quote Beethoven himself: "There is no loftier mission than to approach the Divinity nearer than other men, and to disseminate the divine rays among mankind." This was written to the Archduke Rudolph in 1823. This comes from the book "Beethoven: Them Man and the Artist as Revealed in his Own Words," edited and translated by Henry Edward Krehbiel (page 105).

Yes but I'm not sure if that is quite the same thing. One could say if B's music is divine then B's music is not his own but rather he is a middle man for God! On the other hand considering B is a man then man is capable of being godly. This is more acceptable I think. Remember when the script for Fidelio was finaly prepared someone wrote upon the top page (was is Breuning?) 'finished with God's help' whereupon Beethoven wrote 'O man help thyself' or words to that effect. This I feel is more typical of Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-18-2002).]

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Peter:

I agree with you and Beethoven, but I'm sure the divinity has a sense of humour - Beethoven certainly did.

I agree with you too!

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
I agree with you too!

Yes but do you agree with me?!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Peter:
We really don't have to be quite so serious all the time.....

Hmmmmm.............

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes but do you agree with me?!

Your use of a smiley is most agreeable.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes but I'm not sure if that is quite the same thing. One could say if B's music is divine then B's music is not his own but rather he is a middle man for God! On the other hand considering B is a man then man is capable of being godly. This is more acceptable I think. Remember when the script for Fidelio was finaly prepared someone wrote upon the top page (was is Breuning?) 'finished with God's help' whereupon Beethoven wrote 'O man help thyself' or words to that effect. This I feel is more typical of Beethoven.

Whether or not the music is divine is not my issue. But rather Beethoven's purposes is to reach for that which is divine in his art (regardless whether the goal is attainable or not) is my point. Or to exceed the existing realm of human experience in art. And if man is offspring of a God why not be capable of being godly, like unto the parent? If I am not misunderstanding you I think we are in agreement.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Remember when the script for Fidelio was finaly prepared someone wrote upon the top page (was is Breuning?) 'finished with God's help' whereupon Beethoven wrote 'O man help thyself' or words to that effect. This I feel is more typical of Beethoven.

It was Moscheles, who was making a piano arrangement of Fidelio.

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'Man know thyself'