The Immortal saga - continued!

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:

I'm still not convinced they shared the same feelings. If she did she should have answered the letters even to let him know (gently) why they can't be together, why it was so impossible & try and comfort him a little. What a slap in the face to just send the letters back without even as much as maybe not even opening them or even a tiny reply.

How do you know she didn't reply? The replies may be lost. Perhaps the letters were returned in person - after all he says 'no doubt we shall meet soon'. I can't believe Beethoven would have written such letters to a woman out of hope or desperation - he is the one telling her to be calm!

There's only two reasons why they couldn't be togeher in my opinion: She was married or maybe her parents didn't want her to be with Beethoven like in the case of Theresa Malfatti. That's one of the assumption that their plans fell part.

I think the only married women it could have been is Josephine Brunsvik, and if it was her she probably wrote in hysterical terms that she was desperately unhappy and wished to leave her husband, declaring that she had always loved Beethoven. If the lady was unmarried then the most likely obstacle to their union was class - not the first time Beethoven was rejected on such grounds.

If the IB was JB after she got out of her unhappy marriage why didn't B & her get together then if there were no more obstacles? I don't think she's a likely candidate.


You may be right, the trouble is no one who has been suggested is a likely candidate! It may be that after the separation from her husband, she was unable to divorce him for financial reasons and for the sake of her children - the very reasons she married him instead of Beethoven in the first place.

I am not saying it was Josephine, merely presenting a hypotheseis which no doubt Rod will sink in no time having successfully demolished Solomon re. AB in my view.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-09-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:


I am not saying it was Josephine, merely presenting a hypotheseis which no doubt Rod will sink in no time having successfully demolished Solomon re. AB in my view.

Well, you know my criteria for the selection of the mystery woman. If these are matched then there is a possibility. Read the letter in detail, all of it, then simply see if the candidate fits. Don't worry too much about times, dates and places - do all this and you've taken things a level beyond Solomon! I'm not too concerned who it is as I've said, just who it isn't.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

The updated Immortal page is ready for viewing - needless to say it doesn't solve the mystery but hopefully puts it into better context. I think the map is useful as it's quite nice actually knowing where all the places are!
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/immortal.html

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
How do you know she didn't reply? The replies may be lost. Perhaps the letters were returned in person - after all he says 'no doubt we shall meet soon'. I can't believe Beethoven would have written such letters to a woman out of hope or desperation - he is the one telling her to be calm!


I don't know if she replied or not, of course, but B being the sentimental romantic he seemed to be would have kept the letters he received from her regardless if they were
rejects or not and put them with his IB letters as a keepsake of 'what might have been'. It also seems strange that there was never any other love letters found in his possession from any woman or that he wrote for that matter.


I think the only married women it could have been is Josephine Brunsvik, and if it was her she probably wrote in hysterical terms that she was desperately unhappy and wished to leave her husband, declaring that she had always loved Beethoven. If the lady was unmarried then the most likely obstacle to their union was class - not the first time Beethoven was rejected on such grounds.

Why do you say that the only married woman it could have been was JB? Beethoven was 'in love' with other woman who were unattainable or married or doesn't the date fit with other women. I do agree that the only obstacles in their way would be that she was married or class unattainability.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm not too concerned who it is as I've said, just who it isn't.

[/B]

Maybe through process of elimination we can determine who the real IB is! Although I'm pretty sure this will always remain a mystery.

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:

I don't know if she replied or not, of course, but B being the sentimental romantic he seemed to be would have kept the letters he received from her regardless if they were
rejects or not and put them with his IB letters as a keepsake of 'what might have been'. It also seems strange that there was never any other love letters found in his possession from any woman or that he wrote for that matter.

Don't forget B would have received any replies whilst away from Vienna and may have felt it more discreet to destroy them than leave them lying around, especially as he was travelling all over the place - the IB letters could have been returned to him later when he was back in Vienna.


Why do you say that the only married woman it could have been was JB? Beethoven was 'in love' with other woman who were unattainable or married or doesn't the date fit with other women. I do agree that the only obstacles in their way would be that she was married or class unattainability.



Because I accept Rod's belief that he would have been horrified at having an affair with a married woman - the only circumstance I can think he may have contemplated would be a relationship with Josephine if she was prepared to divorce her husband - the point is he wanted marriage, not an affair and if she was married, she would need to divorce - the only women who seems to fit that situation at the time is Josephine.


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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Sounds reasonable. I definitely agree about JB! He would have wanted marriage and not an affair especially with a married woman and if she was on the verge of a divorce that's quite a different story and B probably would have gone along with that.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Sounds reasonable. I definitely agree about JB! He would have wanted marriage and not an affair especially with a married woman and if she was on the verge of a divorce that's quite a different story and B probably would have gone along with that.

Well it's own a theory, but I think more plausible than Brentano. The letters were written to someone who was obviously in an unhappy and agitated state - JB was known to be very unhappy at the time in her marriage to Stackelberg and may have turned to Beethoven at this time of crisis. She was apart from her husband during the very months May-Dec. Beethoven had been very much in love with her before as is clear from his earlier letters to her. Everyone assumes that the lady concerned was the person who broke the relationship, but what if it were the other way round? What if on reflection Beethoven felt it would be a mistake to marry her? Perhaps he heard things about her - she was thought to be rather unstable.



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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by Joy:
What injury to B? That she was a married woman? B might not have destroyed it anyway. He might have kept it for purely sentimental reasons and that's why he hid it.

Or maybe he didn't know her post (zip) code. The Post Office can be very tetchy about things like that.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well it's own a theory, but I think more plausible than Brentano. The letters were written to someone who was obviously in an unhappy and agitated state - JB was known to be very unhappy at the time in her marriage to Stackelberg and may have turned to Beethoven at this time of crisis. She was apart from her husband during the very months May-Dec. Beethoven had been very much in love with her before as is clear from his earlier letters to her. Everyone assumes that the lady concerned was the person who broke the relationship, but what if it were the other way round? What if on reflection Beethoven felt it would be a mistake to marry her? Perhaps he heard things about her - she was thought to be rather unstable.

You changed your tune about Brentano didn't you? You were rather sure it was her at one time. Anyway, you're right, the decision not to go any further may have been Beethoven's idea. I think he was afraid of commitment because all thru his life there had been times when he could have had a relationship and then backed off. Even though he always said he wanted to get married and regretted not marrying even to his dying day, he still might have been hesitant every time the opportunity came around and then it was to late. Time has a cruel way of getting away from you.

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:
Or maybe he didn't know her post (zip) code. The Post Office can be very tetchy about things like that.

Another fine opportunity ruined because of the Post Office's incompetence. Wouldn't be the first time!

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
The updated Immortal page is ready for viewing - needless to say it doesn't solve the mystery but hopefully puts it into better context. I think the map is useful as it's quite nice actually knowing where all the places are!
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/immortal.html

Finally had time to check out this page. Very nicely done. Enjoyed the pictures immensely. Looks like lots of research went into this. Lots of women to choose from. Looks like old Ludwig had a 'harem'! Seriously though, very interesting.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
You changed your tune about Brentano didn't you? You were rather sure it was her at one time.

To be honest up and till now I hadn't really given the matter a great deal of consideration - it's only as it's the anniversary of the whole thing that I've taken a fresh look with the aim of updating the IB page. I suppose I was guilty of simply accepting the status quo - but Rod has convinced me that the idea of Brentano is ludicrous - How anyone can seriously believe Beethoven was spending those weeks in the company of Franz Brentano whilst carrying on an affair with his wife is beyond me.

Of course there is no proof for Josephine either, but it would begin to look more convincing if she were staying at a place beginning with K in July 1812.

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'Man know thyself'