The Immortal saga - continued!

[Zon]

But why would 'she' return them rather than reply?

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
I agree this is a possibility. This thought has occured to me before. For the letter to have been returned either this reason or perhaps that the woman had had a change of circumstance that excluded Beethoven but did not embitter him towards her (and so he still kept the letter).

I think Beethoven was a hopeless romantic and even if the woman rejected him he probably would have still held some feelings for her. He probably stuck the letter in his drawer and forgot all about it for 15 yrs. give or take being as absent minded as he was.


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 07-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 07-08-2002).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by Zon:
But why would 'she' return them rather than reply?

We'll never know the answer to this one for sure, all we can do is speculate on all these questions and answers. Maybe she just wanted to get her message across meaning 'I'm not interested' for one reason or another and instead of replying she just sent them back unanswered hoping he'll get the message. How do we even know she was as interested in him as he was in her. Maybe it was more one sided than we think.


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 07-08-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:

We'll never know the answer to this one for sure, all we can do is speculate on all these questions and answers. Maybe she just wanted to get her message across meaning 'I'm not interested' for one reason or another and instead of replying she just sent them back unanswered hoping he'll get the message. How do we even know she was as interested in him as he was in her. Maybe it was more one sided than we think.


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 07-08-2002).]

Whatever the case, just remember the choice of Brentano is an afront to his good name. That academics so readily believe and are prepared to reiterate virtually anything Solomon writes justifies my long standing contempt for these people.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-08-2002).]

[Zon]

Was there anything else found with the letters? Any kind of postage? Envelopes? Also, where are these letters now?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Zon:
Was there anything else found with the letters? Any kind of postage? Envelopes? Also, where are these letters now?

No postage or envelope (think we would have the name if we had the envelope!). Don't know where they are now.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Found along with the IB letters were some bank shares, bonds, & other important documents. Stephen Von Breuning found these in a small cash box in B's desk. The original manuscript is now in the Berlin Royal Library. I was wondering if the miniature portrait of G. Guicciardi was found among these items too?

[Zon]

Originally posted by Rod:
No postage or envelope (think we would have the name if we had the envelope!). Don't know where they are now.

Right! But... no envelope and still in his possession w/ no reply, really makes it hard for me to believe they were ever sent. Obviously they were important enough to keep in a money box with other important papers...but why, what was he thinking!!?? This mystery will never be solved in my opinion. Too much time has passed.

Was Shindler ever asked about this subject?

[This message has been edited by Zon (edited 07-09-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Zon:
Right! But... no envelope and still in his possession w/ no reply, really makes it hard for me to believe they were ever sent. Obviously they were important enough to keep in a money box with other important papers...but why, what was he thinking!!?? This mystery will never be solved in my opinion. Too much time has passed.

Was Shindler ever asked about this subject?

[This message has been edited by Zon (edited 07-09-2002).]

This is true, but if the letter was never sent there would be little point in him keping it. The letter would be of more significance to B if it had been in the possession of the woman and then for some reason returned. But I accept there is no concrete answer to this matter. But if the letter would have caused injury to B's name if discovered (as it would have been in the case of Brentano being the IB) then I suggest he would have destroyed it altogether.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-09-2002).]

[Zon]

True. But if they were sent & returned. Why do you think he would keep this reminder of someone who does not share his feelings?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Zon:
True. But if they were sent & returned. Why do you think he would keep this reminder of someone who does not share his feelings?

Which I why I said earlier the reason for the relationship coming to an end presumably did not embitter Beethoven towards to woman, at least to any significant degree.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zon:
True. But if they were sent & returned. Why do you think he would keep this reminder of someone who does not share his feelings?

I think she did share his feelings - he would not have written such a letter and using the informal 'du' instead of 'sie' unless he was sure of his ground. The letters were returned because for whatever reason, it was impossible for them to marry, not because the lady concerned did not love him. As Rod has said, if the letters were not sent he would most likely have destroyed them.

Whoever she was, he tells her 'to be calm' - this implies to me that she was in rather an hysterical state. He also says 'for only by calmly considering our lives can we achieve our purpose of living together' - i.e what the hell are we going to do? Something had clearly happened to upset this lady 'you are suffering my most precious one' and Beethoven was trying to comfort her and find a way through an impossible situation.

Could this not be Josephine Brunsvik after all, on the verge of a nervous breakdown? - at this time her unhappy marriage to Stackelberg was in ruins - (they separated the following year and she was apart from her husband between May and December 1812).


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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Zon:
Right! But... no envelope and still in his possession w/ no reply, really makes it hard for me to believe they were ever sent. Obviously they were important enough to keep in a money box with other important papers...but why, what was he thinking!!?? This mystery will never be solved in my opinion. Too much time has passed.

Was Shindler ever asked about this subject?

[This message has been edited by Zon (edited 07-09-2002).]

I agree this mystery will never be solved properly. I got the information from the book 'Beethoven's Letters' w/explanatory notes by AC Kalischer. Supposedly along with Von Breuning & Carl Holz Schindler was present at the time of the discovery.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rod:
This is true, but if the letter was never sent there would be little point in him keping it. The letter would be of more significance to B if it had been in the possession of the woman and then for some reason returned. But I accept there is no concrete answer to this matter. But if the letter would have caused injury to B's name if discovered (as it would have been in the case of Brentano being the IB) then I suggest he would have destroyed it altogether.

What injury to B? That she was a married woman? B might not have destroyed it anyway. He might have kept it for purely sentimental reasons and that's why he hid it.

[Joy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] I think she did share his feelings - he would not have written such a letter and using the informal 'du' instead of 'sie' unless he was sure of his ground. The letters were returned because for whatever reason, it was impossible for them to marry, not because the lady concerned did not love him. As Rod has said, if the letters were not sent he would most likely have destroyed them.


I'm still not convinced they shared the same feelings. If she did she should have answered the letters even to let him know (gently) why they can't be together, why it was so impossible & try and comfort him a little. What a slap in the face to just send the letters back without even as much as maybe not even opening them or even a tiny reply.

Whoever she was, he tells her 'to be calm' - this implies to me that she was in rather an hysterical state. He also says 'for only by calmly considering our lives can we achieve our purpose of living together' - i.e what the hell are we going to do? Something had clearly happened to upset this lady 'you are suffering my most precious one' and Beethoven was trying to comfort her and find a way through an impossible situation.

There's only two reasons why they couldn't be togeher in my opinion: She was married or maybe her parents didn't want her to be with Beethoven like in the case of Theresa Malfatti. That's one of the assumption that their plans fell part.

Could this not be Josephine Brunsvik after all, on the verge of a nervous breakdown? - at this time her unhappy marriage to Stackelberg was in ruins - (they separated the following year and she was apart from her husband between May and December 1812).

If the IB was JB after she got out of her unhappy marriage why didn't B & her get together then if there were no more obstacles? I don't think she's a likely candidate.