The Immortal saga - continued!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Peter:
Another outsider is the Countess Elise von der Recke who I know nothing about.

I think we can discount this lady who Beethoven met and befriended in 1812 on the following grounds!

"The countess Charlotte Elise Constanze von der Recke (May 20 1754-Dresden, April 13, 1833), married in 1771 Georg von der Recke, separated in 1776, divorced in 1781. Mother of only one girl, Friederike (June 17, 1774 - January 26, 1777). She travelled much, knew Catherine II, Goethe, Feuerbach, Casanova. One often saw her at the baths of Teplitz. From 1804 she lived with the poet Christoph August Tiedge (1752-1841)."



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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't think writing in French on this issue is significant - if Beethoven wished for secrecy he would have spoken the words and not written them down as was his main practice with the conversation books anyway.

The writing I presume was done in a public place, thus talking would be out of the question, but writing in French would serve a more useful purpose. What other reason would he change to French in the 'conversation'?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
The writing I presume was done in a public place, thus talking would be out of the question, but writing in French would serve a more useful purpose. What other reason would he change to French in the 'conversation'?

I don't know, but French was commonly spoken at that time in Vienna - wasn't it the international language of the day? It was probably just an expression in the same way we sometimes slip in French phrases in conversation - only some of Beethoven's remarks were in French, not all. I don't see that writing in French would have made it any more secretive or really what there was to be secretive about.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't know, but French was commonly spoken at that time in Vienna - wasn't it the international language of the day? It was probably just an expression in the same way we sometimes slip in French phrases in conversation - only some of Beethoven's remarks were in French, not all. I don't see that writing in French would have made it any more secretive or really what there was to be secretive about.

I am pretty certain the conversation in the book switches from German to French for this topic. Make of it what u will Peter, I wasn't really expecting an argument from u in this matter! It would be perhaps a sensitive subect considering she would have been long married by then. I would say he was being politely discreet at the very least.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-05-2002).]

[Rod]

For the record I checked my book of Beethoven letters which has the whole conversation transcribed. The rest of the written comments are in German so they were not having a chat in French, also the conversation was in a public place, not Beethoven's house.

Why I continually refer to Guicciardi in the context of the IB is not whether she may or may not be the intented receiver of this IB letter, but rather the romantic notion of the IB being B's greatest yet doomed love affair with an anonymous woman is meaningless when B has already confessed the true candidate of this nature regardless of the letter. Thus as I have said the primary appeal of the IB is her apparent anonymity. The true immortal beloved as she is popularly envisaged, regardless of the letter, is Guicciardi, because Beethoven has told us this himself in 1823.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
For the record I checked my book of Beethoven letters which has the whole conversation transcribed. The rest of the written comments are in German so they were not having a chat in French, also the conversation was in a public place, not Beethoven's house.

I still think there was no need for secrecy if it were being written down - it was only ever intended for Schindler's eyes, so what difference does the language make - surely Greek or Latin would have been more secret than French? I don't really think this point is of any signifigance either way though!


The true immortal beloved as she is popularly envisaged, regardless of the letter, is Guicciardi, because Beethoven has told us this himself in 1823.

Guicciardi is not THE true candidate - she was one of several true candidates - I suspect B's feelings for Josephine von Brunsvik were much stronger. For the record I shall be revising the IB page on this site at some stage to take account of your views about AB - the page will also include a map, info and pics of the places concerned in this ongoing drama (Teplitz and Karlsbad), as well as facsimiles of the letters.


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-07-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't really think this point is of any signifigance either way though!

It isn't of any real significance, your repeated attempts to deny the obious with regard to this conversation are the only reason we are still discussing it.

Originally posted by Peter:

Guicciardi is not THE true candidate - she was one of several true candidates - I suspect B's feelings for Josephine von Brunsvik were much stronger. For the record I shall be revising the IB page on this site at some stage to take account of your views about AB - the page will also include a map, info and pics of the places concerned in this ongoing drama (Teplitz and Karlsbad), as well as facsimiles of the letters.

You exasperate me yet again Peter! Unless Schindler forged the whole conversation, which is totally unlikely in this circumstance, Beethoven identifies Guicciardi as the one old love that really meant something. Basically this is how we construe the Immortal Beloved even though the letter was most likely not for her. Whatever his feelings for any other woman, Beethoven states categorically that it was G that stuck in his memory in 1823. This is a clear identification of an individual, from 'the horse's mouth'. But I presume Beethoven's word in not enough Peter?!

Regarding your revision of the IB page please note that there is research that has been done to discredit AB as the candidate that I have not read, It may be worth doing a little internet search on the matter. Please note also that virually every big name in the Beethoven writing business accepts Solomon's hypothesis virtually without question, from Cooper and Forbes to, er, Suchet!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-07-2002).]

[Peter]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
You exasperate me yet again Peter! Unless Schindler forged the whole conversation, which is totally unlikely in this circumstance, Beethoven identifies Guicciardi as the one old love that really meant something. Basically this is how we construe the Immortal Beloved even though the letter was most likely not for her. Whatever his feelings for any other woman, Beethoven states categorically that it was G that stuck in his memory in 1823. This is a clear identification of an individual, from 'the horse's mouth'. But I presume Beethoven's word in not enough Peter?!

Perhaps you have more of the conversation than I have read, but from what I have, they are simply discussing her in a casual way - Of course I'm not denying that Beethoven was in love with her, he says as much in his letter to Wegeler in 1801 (presuming he is referring to Guicciardi) - you can't deduce from this snippet of a written conversation that no one after her ever meant as much or perhaps more. I assume you've read the letters to Josephine Brunsvik - also from 'the horse's mouth'? I never have construed the IB as having been his one and only love - she was the current one for 1812!


Regarding your revision of the IB page please note that there is research that has been done to discredit AB as the candidate that I have not read, I may be worth doing a little internet search on the matter. Please note also that virually every big name in the Beethoven writing business accepts Solomon's hypothesis virtually without question, from Cooper and Forbes to, er, Suchet!



I shall indeed - I think they should offer a reward of £1,000,000 to the first person to prove her identity conclusively!

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 07-07-2002).]

[chopithoven]

Bettina von Brentano, who appears in this site's picture gallery, is the woman commonly named as "Toni" Brentano? Or this second woman was called Antonia? Please clear this doubt.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Bettina von Brentano, who appears in this site's picture gallery, is the woman commonly named as "Toni" Brentano? Or this second woman was called Antonia? Please clear this doubt.

She was the half-sister of Toni's husband Franz. She married the poet Achim Von Arnim in 1811 - she had met Beethoven in 1810 and they had a friendship for a brief period. She was prone to a rather fanciful imagination, and of three letters supposed to have been written to her, only one is thought to be genuine.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Perhaps you have more of the conversation than I have read, but from what I have, they are simply discussing her in a casual way - Of course I'm not denying that Beethoven was in love with her, he says as much in his letter to Wegeler in 1801 (presuming he is referring to Guicciardi) - you can't deduce from this snippet of a written conversation that no one after her ever meant as much or perhaps more. I assume you've read the letters to Josephine Brunsvik - also from 'the horse's mouth'? I never have construed the IB as having been his one and only love - she was the current one for 1812!

It seems 1812 was obviously a busy year for Beethoven if we are to believe Solomon.

Originally posted by Peter:


I shall indeed - I think they should offer a reward of £1,000,000 to the first person to prove her identity conclusively!

I've got my own ideas on the matter but I'm keeping them quiet until I'm sure, then I'll be famous and somehow make some money. I've got copyright on all my writings in this subject, so Cooper better keep his hands off it!!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 07-08-2002).]

[Zon]

Im sure this has been covered already but curiosity got the best of me. These letters to "eternal beloved" were found in Beethovens desk while looking for bank shares? I read in Thayers Life of Beethoven that there is a possibility that they were never sent? If that is not the case why would B have still had them?

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"To play without passion is inexcusable!" - Ludwig van Beethoven

[Peter]

Originally posted by Zon:
Im sure this has been covered already but curiosity got the best of me. These letters to "eternal beloved" were found in Beethovens desk while looking for bank shares? I read in Thayers Life of Beethoven that there is a possibility that they were never sent? If that is not the case why would B have still had them?

I think they were sent - why else would Beethoven have referred to the post so frequently in the letters and actually end the last one 'I must close so that you may receive the letter immediately'?

No, I'm certain they were sent and returned to him - he obviously kept them as a reminder of this affair and because she was so special to him.



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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

If they were sent and returned back to him then the woman in question must not have had the same intentions as Beethoven did. Maybe Beethoven misread their whole relatonship, if you could call it that.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
If they were sent and returned back to him then the woman in question must not have had the same intentions as Beethoven did. Maybe Beethoven misread their whole relatonship, if you could call it that.

I agree this is a possibility. This thought has occured to me before. For the letter to have been returned either this reason or perhaps that the woman had had a change of circumstance that excluded Beethoven but did not embitter him towards her (and so he still kept the letter).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin