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**Joy** · 05-03-2002, 12:29 AM

Enjoyed this new page very much. Lots of information on Beethoven's original pianos.
I have a question about the 4 pedals. What were the lute stop and sourdine pedals used for? I'm familiar with the other two. Also, was Johann Malzel who constructed hearing aids and sound boards for Beethoven of the metronome fame? Thanks.

**chopithoven** · 05-03-2002, 03:03 AM

Thanks for the honor.

**chopithoven** · 05-03-2002, 03:36 AM

The picture I published on Tripod does not appear on the piano's page. So, which one is it?

**Peter** · 05-03-2002, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by chopithoven:
The picture I published on Tripod does not appear on the piano's page. So, which one is it?

Good question. The pictures on the piano page of this site are correct, so we need to work out which piano is being shown by the tripod photo. The piano in your tripod picture is taken in the Kunsthistoriches Museum Vienna. It is definitely not the 1825 Graf which is in the Beethovenhaus. The 1803 Erard is in the Kunsthistoriches Museum and both the tripod picture and the Erard have 4 pedals, however the legs are different and there is a gold plate on the tripod picture which is not on the Erard. Anyone else any suggestions?

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 05-03-2002, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Peter:
...Anyone else any suggestions?

The piano in the 'tripod' picture is not Beethoven's Graf, but it is a Graf from the 1820's.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

**Peter** · 05-03-2002, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Joy:
Enjoyed this new page very much. Lots of information on Beethoven's original pianos.
I have a question about the 4 pedals. What were the lute stop and sourdine pedals used for? I'm familiar with the other two. Also, was Johann Malzel who constructed hearing aids and sound boards for Beethoven of the metronome fame? Thanks.

First, yes this Maelzel is the same guy who invented the metronome and who Beethoven collaborated with to produce Wellingtons sieg.
The early Viennese pianos were not capable of a true una corda (playing on one string - the English were the first to achieve this), so to compensate various muting devices were used, one of these was the lute-stop. Another similar but different mechanism was the jeu-celeste (often confused with the lute-stop as they could both be referred to as Sourdine). The Erard was also fitted with a una corda - it was the first of Beethoven's pianos to have pedals (previous instruments were knee operated).

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-03-2002).]

**Rod** · 05-03-2002, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Peter:
As promised and thanks to Chopithoven's original enquiry, there is now a page on the site featuring Beethoven's pianos. ..

I think there is something in the text you provide that is not strictly true. It says B's desire for a true 'una corda' equiped piano led him to the Erard. In fact B's Erard was a gift from the manufacturers that I think came as a surprise. That B was aware of the keyboard shift before this time indicates I presume that such instruments were also to be found in Vienna. B thought this (English actioned) instrument was virtually unplayable and even attempted to have its action replaced. I think you could make a little more of the action topic. The Erard's increased compass was perhaps of more use to him. The superiority of tone of the Erard over the Walter I would say is a matter of opinion!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-03-2002).]

**Peter** · 05-03-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
I think there is something in the text you provide that is not strictly true. It says B's desire for a true 'una corda' equiped piano led him to the Erard. In fact B's Erard was a gift from the manufacturers that I think came as a surprise. That B was aware of the keyboard shift before this time indicates I presume that such instruments were also to be found in Vienna. B thought this (English actioned) instrument was virtually unplayable and even attempted to have its action replaced. I think you could make a little more of the action topic. The Erard's increased compass was perhaps of more use to him. The superiority of tone of the Erard over the Walter I would say is a matter of opinion!

The text was written in extreme haste and therefore the inaccuracies are quite remarkable! You are of course correct that the Erard was presented to Beethoven. None the less it was the first instrument he possessed that had the proper una corda pedal - he had been pestering Walter about this. That he thought highly of Walter's pianos is reflected in his willingness to purchase from Walter in 1802, at a time when other manufacturers were offering him free instruments.

I'd be grateful if you could supply any extra information that you think is appropiate as I have a lot on at the moment.

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'Man know thyself'

**Rod** · 05-03-2002, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Peter:
The text was written in extreme haste and therefore the inaccuracies are quite remarkable! You are of course correct that the Erard was presented to Beethoven. None the less it was the first instrument he possessed that had the proper una corda pedal - he had been pestering Walter about this. That he thought highly of Walter's pianos is reflected in his willingness to purchase from Walter in 1802, at a time when other manufacturers were offering him free instruments.

I'd be grateful if you could supply any extra information that you think is appropiate as I have a lot on at the moment.

I think by and large you've got enough for the purposes of this site - but comparisions of the actions and keyboards then and now and their respective handling characteristics would be interesting - I'll try and compile something for you. Of course my comment about the superiority of tone was only a personal opinion!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-03-2002).]

**chopithoven** · 05-04-2002, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Rod:
The piano in the 'tripod' picture is not Beethoven's Graf, but it is a Graf from the 1820's.

So the tripod piano did not belong to Beethoven?

**Rod** · 05-04-2002, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by chopithoven:
So the tripod piano did not belong to Beethoven?

The tripod piano did not belong to Beethoven.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-04-2002).]

**chopithoven** · 05-04-2002, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by Rod:
The tripod piano did not belong to Beethoven.

And why is it next to a picture of Ludwig van?

**Rod** · 05-05-2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by chopithoven:
And why is it next to a picture of Ludwig van?

Because they put it there! I presume because the Graf brand has a connection with Beethoven and this particular instrument is a contemporary model to B's own.

The Graf in the 'pianos page' at this site is Beethoven's, it can be found at the Beethoven Haus museum in Bonn. You will notice the two pianos are clearly different.

I hope at long last you will be satified.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

SR · 05-05-2002, 06:29 PM

Nice new page. One item you might care to change. The 4th string was not a brief failed experiment. A highly respected piano brand, "Bluthner" is still made today in Germany and carry the 4th string. They are wonderful sounding instruments and it is hard for me to understand why more makers don't do this. The 4th string is not struck by the hammer. It sits beside a vibrates in harmony with the three struck strings, adding an extra richness of overtones.
http://www.bluthnerpiano.com/bspecs.html

Look down the page to section on strings
"Aliquot"

REgards

Steve

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