A question and a GREAT site

[Luis]

Hi, nice to read you again!

It is a pity that neither this nor the other forum are now so live as the other one used to be. I don´t know the reasons of the separation but I hope the two forums to improve so I can continue learning in the course of the discussions.

Well, here's the question: Why since Verdi there are people that reject the last movement of the 9a symphony? As far as I know the argument is related with the treatment of the human voice. In that case, which the supposed "lack" is? And, does any of you shares this or another critic related to this last movement?
The second part of my message refers to an incredible Beethoven site that I visited and I wanted to know if I' m allowed to publish its address on this forum.

Greetings, Luis.

PS: I even read that a Beethoven friend, Carl Czerny (I have no idea who he was) said that after the first performance of B´s 9th, B himself revealed to a small circle of friends that the choral finale was a mistake and that he was planning to replacing it with an instrumental one. What do you know about this?

[Chris]

Well, I love the finale. Beethoven is not known for being a great composer of vocal music, mostly because (I think) he treats voices like instruments, where most believe they should be used more delicately. Perhaps singers may find awkward things in the music, but I think the effect on the listener is fantastic. I think that is the "treatment" issue.

And sure, give us the URL to the site you found.

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Peter]

That beethoven had difficulty with vocal composition is evident by the fact that he himself continued lessons with Salieri, possibly as late as 1809 - when he was nearly 40 years of age and with Fidelio,all the concertos and the first 6 symphonies to his credit ! - Beethoven tended to set texts not for their literary value, but rather for the ideals they contained , hence many of his favourite poets - (with the exception of Goethe) - Shakespeare,Homer,Ossian,Schiller and Klopstock he rarely set to music. Prominent amongst his vocal settings are words such as God,Stars,Hope,Sun,longing - themes that were important to him.
With regard to the 9th Symphony, the choral finale has always attracted the most criticism, the other 3 movements being regarded as perfection,super-human and beyond criticism.Apparently Beethoven had at one time intended an instrumental finale using the theme from the A minor Quartet Op.132. It was Leopold Sonnleithner writing as late as 1864 who quoted the remark made by Czerny.The fact that hardly anyone has heard of Leopold Sonnleithner,yet the finale of the 9th is probably one of the best loved and known Beethoven works answers the question !

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:
Hi, nice to read you again!

It is a pity that neither this nor the other forum are now so live as the other one used to be. I don´t know the reasons of the separation but I hope the two forums to improve so I can continue learning in the course of the discussions.

Well, here's the question: Why since Verdi there are people that reject the last movement of the 9a symphony? As far as I know the argument is related with the treatment of the human voice. In that case, which the supposed "lack" is? And, does any of you shares this or another critic related to this last movement?
The second part of my message refers to an incredible Beethoven site that I visited and I wanted to know if I' m allowed to publish its address on this forum.

Greetings, Luis.

PS: I even read that a Beethoven friend, Carl Czerny (I have no idea who he was) said that after the first performance of B´s 9th, B himself revealed to a small circle of friends that the choral finale was a mistake and that he was planning to replacing it with an instrumental one. What do you know about this?

For the forum to improve people must continue to write in!

A host of famous composers have found fault with the choral finale. Yet where does the fault lie? With the famous composers of course, because they simply couldn't understand it!! It is well above and beyond the likes of Verdi, that's for certain!

B had contemplated a instrumental finale but abandoned the idea in the sketch stage. This is the first time I have heard of your story regarding Czerny (a pupil of B's who became a virtuoso pianist and composer). Why would he want to change it when it received such great applause at the premiere??!! Not for musical reasons, maybe for commercial ones perhaps (the cost of staging this production was enormous, giving B little, if any, profit). I will look into this matter.

[Suzie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luis:
[B]Hi, nice to read you again!

It is a pity that neither this nor the other forum are now so live as the other one used to be. I don´t know the reasons of the separation but I hope the two forums to improve so I can continue learning in the course of the discussions.

Well, here's the question: Why since Verdi there are people that reject the last movement of the 9a symphony? As far as I know the argument is related with the treatment of the human voice. In that case, which the supposed "lack" is? And, does any of you shares this or another critic related to this last movement?
The second part of my message refers to an incredible Beethoven site that I visited and I wanted to know if I' m allowed to publish its address on this forum.

Greetings, Luis.

PS: I even read that a Beethoven friend, Carl Czerny (I have no idea who he was) said that after the first performance of B´s 9th, B himself revealed to a small circle of friends that the choral finale was a mistake and that he was planning to replacing it with an instrumental one. What do you know about this?

Hi Luis.

I think the choral movement is too ingenious. I know their have been complaints that B was truly deaf because the choral is difficult to sing w/some very high notes. I have several copies of the 9th and I have not detected any suffering by the singers. Only in one video of the 9th did I see the singers get out of sync(most likely they were 4 big names trying to get out front?).

In fact I read complaints of many of B's pieces only because they were ahead of their time and not understood. Maybe someday, way off in the future, when I'm 90, I will 'understand' rap?

S

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
For the forum to improve people must continue to write in!

A host of famous composers have found fault with the choral finale. Yet where does the fault lie? With the famous composers of course, because they simply couldn't understand it!! It is well above and beyond the likes of Verdi, that's for certain!

B had contemplated a instrumental finale but abandoned the idea in the sketch stage. This is the first time I have heard of your story regarding Czerny (a pupil of B's who became a virtuoso pianist and composer). Why would he want to change it when it received such great applause at the premiere??!! Not for musical reasons, maybe for commercial ones perhaps (the cost of staging this production was enormous, giving B little, if any, profit). I will look into this matter.

I'm not sure that a 'host' of composers have found fault with the finale - critics have for sure, but I don't recall any deflamatory remarks made about it by Brahms,Wagner,Mahler,Bruckner etc.. As I said in my reply to Luis, the remark about Beethoven being disatisfied himself with the finale was reputedly reported by Czerny to Leopold Sonnleithner, who mentions it in the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung 6 April 1864 whilst reviewing a performance of the 9th - he goes on to say that it was regrettable that Beethoven did not replace the last movement !! The fact remains that Beethoven did not replace it or make revisions, which he most certainly would have done had he not been satisfied.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I'm not sure that a 'host' of composers have found fault with the finale - critics have for sure, but I don't recall any deflamatory remarks made about it by Brahms,Wagner,Mahler,Bruckner etc.. As I said in my reply to Luis, the remark about Beethoven being disatisfied himself with the finale was reputedly reported by Czerny to Leopold Sonnleithner, who mentions it in the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung 6 April 1864 whilst reviewing a performance of the 9th - he goes on to say that it was regrettable that Beethoven did not replace the last movement !! The fact remains that Beethoven did not replace it or make revisions, which he most certainly would have done had he not been satisfied.

Yes, I should have broadened the scope for critisism of this movement. However, both Mahler and Wagner, and other well known names like Weingartner suggested it was in need of modification (and indeed made modifications) as far as I can remember. Brahms would certainly have preferred an instrumental finale. Tchaikovsky said of the late quartets "glimmers...the rest is chaos", I wonder what he made of the 9th. The arrogance of many composers of this era was surely matched only by their ignorance! Also I'm sure Stravinsky said something uncomplimentary about it.

As you say, the fact that B made no effort or plans to actually produce a replacement finale surely gives us his own final opinion on the matter. Actions speak louder than words!

Rod

[Leonard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Suzie:
In fact I read complaints of many of B's pieces only because they were ahead of their time and not understood. Maybe someday, way off in the future, when I'm 90, I will 'understand' rap?

I doubt that, but it is possible that, on the next life, you and other people will understand the contemporary composers of our days. The destiny of the composers seems to be in fact that to be understood 100 years (or more) in delay, when the people have finally become familiar with the "new" language. The rap is another thing, because it is the expression of many young people of our time, and not something "out" of our time. Leonard

[Chris]

Or could it be that rap is just bad?

------------------
"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Peter]

Originally posted by Leonard:

I doubt that, but it is possible that, on the next life, you and other people will understand the contemporary composers of our days. The destiny of the composers seems to be in fact that to be understood 100 years (or more) in delay, when the people have finally become familiar with the "new" language. The rap is another thing, because it is the expression of many young people of our time, and not something "out" of our time. Leonard[/B]

That's a good way of putting it Leonard - rap is of our day (unfortunately) and is symptomatic of a drug crazed culture - it really is anti-music. Re. Contemporary composers, I don't think they fair much better ! - Many people did not understand Beethoven's music (particularly his late works) but he was universally admired, world famous, and regarded as an exceptional human being in his own day. 20,000-30,000 people turned out for his funeral. I doubt that the likes of Harrison Birtwhistle will ever achieve that in 1000 years let alone whilst still living ! There have been some great 20th century names - Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich - but they are not up there with Beethoven. For me, Beethoven is THE supreme artist and as such, is unsurpassable - the Romantics knew this, which is why they got themselves into such a mess - psychologically. musically, and emotionally.I love many of the 19th century composers - Brahms and Schumann particularly, but they did not attain the heights reached by Beethoven.


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'Man know thyself'

[Leonard]

Originally posted by Peter:
Re. Contemporary composers, I don't think they fair much better ! - Many people did not understand Beethoven's music (particularly his late works) but he was universally admired, world famous, and regarded as an exceptional human being in his own day.
20,000-30,000 people turned out for his funeral. I doubt that the likes of Harrison Birtwhistle will ever achieve that in 1000 years let alone whilst still living ! There have been some great 20th century names - Stravinsky, Bartok, Shostakovich - but they are not up there with Beethoven. Peter

Only because people don't understand their language. One can prefer Beethoven, but there are many works by Bartok and Stravinsky that are true masterpieces. I tell you more: there is a lot of contemporary music that is much better, on my opinion, than a lot of classical music. I prefer for example Corigliano's 1st symphony and piano concerto much more than a lot of classical and romantic symphonies and concertos. That was only an example. The problem is: How much can the people understand, if they have in their ears 24 hours per day only pop, rap, techno or classical music only until Wagner? The emotions you feel are also a matter of education and habit. Leonard

For me, Beethoven is THE supreme artist and as such, is unsurpassable - the Romantics knew this, which is why they got themselves into such a mess - psychologically. Peter

I appreciate your enthusiasm. I love Beethoven too, but there are other great composers, whose works are wonderful. It is really a matter of taste. I know many people who find the Missa Solemnis a detestable work, whereas for me it is the best Missa of the music history. Leonard

I love many of the 19th century composers - Brahms and Schumann particularly, but they did not attain the heights reached by Beethoven. Peter

I agree. Leonard

[Luis]

1)(To Rod)
Rod wrote "Where does the fault lie? With the famous composers of course". And about Tchaikovsky "I wonder what he made of the 9th". Hey! Do you like ANYTHIG apart from Beethoven played on period instruments!!!

I was really surprised about both, Wagner and Mahler, not being fully satisfied with the finale. Hmm...

2) (not "against" Leonard)
Leonard wrote:
"The problem is: How much can the people understand, if they have in their ears 24 hours per day only pop, rap, techno or classical music only until Wagner? The emotions you feel are also a matter of education and habit."

Oh, yes, the emotions you feel are indeed a matter of education and habit but I don't think of myself being more educated, more learned or being a better person for listening classical music. I cannot even say that my musical taste is "better" or more "refined" than the one of a person that listens rap or any other music that I can't stand. There is not nothing else that the personal and intimate emotion experienced when listening certain music that bases the musical pleasure and taste, and this emotion cannot be questioned in hierarchical terms.

Greetings, Luis.

Here's a nice quote (The translation might be rubbish, sorry...)
"Certainly, no man has seen a certain truth and there will never be somebody that knows about the gods and the nature of things, (...) because still if he succeeds in saying what is totally accurate, he won't know that he is being accurate about it; the appearance is fixed by the destination on all the things."
Jenofanes (VI BC)

PS:
1) About Czerny I found out that he first performed B´s Cello sonata Op. 102 No. 1
Here are some info about him: http://www.karadar.it/Dictionary/czerny.html
2) And here is the site I mentioned about Beethoven: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/3732/index.html

[Leonard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luis:
[B]2) (not "against" Leonard)

Oh, yes, the emotions you feel are indeed a matter of education and habit but I don't think of myself being more educated, more learned or being a better person for listening classical music. I cannot even say that my musical taste is "better" or more "refined" than the one of a person that listens rap or any other music that I can't stand. There is not nothing else that the personal and intimate emotion experienced when listening certain music that bases the musical pleasure and taste, and this emotion cannot be questioned in hierarchical terms. Luis

On my opinion there is music that is more complicated and refined than other. You can think I am a Nazis, but a Beethoven’s Quartet is more intelligent, deeper, more creative and beautiful than a pop or rap song. Unfortunately, it is also more complicated, and you need –to understand it- something that you don’t need to understand pop, rap, and techno. But people’s education and habit are anyway the main factor in understanding the classical music, and not (only) their intelligence and taste. So I don’t want to discuss about the emotions in terms of hierarchy, but in terms of culture, education and habit, BUT –and I repeat BUT- with my inmost conviction that the classical music (even contemporary) is more developed, intelligent and deeper than pop, rap, techno, etc. Leonard

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:
1)(To Rod)
Rod wrote "Where does the fault lie? With the famous composers of course". And about Tchaikovsky "I wonder what he made of the 9th". Hey! Do you like ANYTHIG apart from Beethoven played on period instruments!!!

I was really surprised about both, Wagner and Mahler, not being fully satisfied with the finale. Hmm...

For me, only Handel is fit to sit by Beethoven on the Olympian heights!

There is no doubt about what I said regarding Wagner et al. During the Romantic era especially, it was not unusual for composers to add their own 'improvements' to well known pieces, regardless of what they said of such pieces in public. As I have said before, actions speak louder than words!

Rod

[Joyce]

Originally posted by Peter:

That beethoven had difficulty with vocal composition is evident by the fact that he himself continued lessons with Salieri, possibly as late as 1809 - when he was nearly 40 years of age and with Fidelio,all the concertos and the first 6 symphonies to his credit ! - Beethoven tended to set texts not for their literary value, but rather for the ideals they contained , hence many of his favourite poets - (with the exception of Goethe) - Shakespeare,Homer,Ossian,Schiller and Klopstock he rarely set to music. Prominent amongst his vocal settings are words such as God,Stars,Hope,Sun,longing - themes that were important to him.
With regard to the 9th Symphony, the choral finale has always attracted the most criticism, the other 3 movements being regarded as perfection,super-human and beyond criticism.Apparently Beethoven had at one time intended an instrumental finale using the theme from the A minor Quartet Op.132. It was Leopold Sonnleithner writing as late as 1864 who quoted the remark made by Czerny.The fact that hardly anyone has heard of Leopold Sonnleithner,yet the finale of the 9th is probably one of the best loved and known Beethoven works answers the question !

No, it's not true that Beethoven had lessons from Salieri as late as 1809. He visited the man in that year, but that's all. Most probably he had those lessons only in the first decade of his stay in Vienna. Salieri was not home in 1809 and Beethoven left a note on the man's desk with the text "Beethoven was here."

Joyce