newbie

[Stephen J. Wade]

Are we inspired to do great things in our own lives after listening to Ludwig? Are our hearts opened, a wee bit more, after experiencing the passion and depth of his heart? The power to persuade and influence the heart is brought to its pinnacle in Ludwigs work. It is this spirit that moves within us all that responds so deeply when hearing his music. A wonderful 'time-capsule', whose discoverer upon opening, tastes the sweet grapes of immortality.


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Stephen

[Chris]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Are we inspired to do great things in our own lives after listening to Ludwig? Are our hearts opened, a wee bit more, after experiencing the passion and depth of his heart?

No. But I am inspired to listen to more great music

[Stephen J. Wade]

hehehe.... perhaps, even to, write a great work all your own. For who can capture the world thru eyes like yours? Who can translate all the beauty that abounds around you? Who is but a heartbeat away from composing the next 'symphony' of the spirit.


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Stephen

[Joy]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
hehehe.... perhaps, even to, write a great work all your own. For who can capture the world thru eyes like yours? Who can translate all the beauty that abounds around you? Who is but a heartbeat away from composing the next 'symphony' of the spirit.

Stephen,
I read in our Phoenix paper a couple of weeks ago about your San Diego Symphony and how one man alone donated that hundred million to keep your symphony afloat. Amazing that one person did that. We need a person like that here in Phoenix to help our struggling symphony.

Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 03-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 03-26-2002).]

[Stephen J. Wade]

Originally posted by Joy:
Stephen,
I read in our Phoenix paper a couple of weeks ago about your San Diego Symphony and how one man alone donated that hundred million to keep your symphony afloat. Amazing that one person did that. We need a person like that here in Phoenix to help our struggling symphony.

Joy,

Yes, sometimes all it takes is one patron, one individual who has experienced the thrill of live CM to change the whole outlook of a symphonies destiny.
Maybe his gift will spark others around the country to contribute in the same grand fashion.
For many, many years the symphony here has struggled, even shut down for a short time due to not enough interest. For me, a relative newcomer to live perfromances, I can now look forward to lots of Ludwig!!!!
I have heard from friends that next seasons program is filled with Ludwig Ludwig Ludwig!!!!! It is ironic that most of my CM friends have been listening to CM for years and years and they look at the programs and say, 'Oh they've filled the program with the Old War Horses' And I reply to them... "Bring on the Troops!!!!!!"
I hope for you there in Phoenix that someone with the resources can make a sizable donation to ensure your symphonies presence. :-)
Joy

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 03-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 03-26-2002).]

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Stephen

[camden]

I wonder if I am speaking the same language as you at all Peter. All I have asked you to do is to PROOVE to me the existence of these objective values. You haven't, as far as I can see, even tried to do this yet. All you are doing is, albeit rather forcefully and with great rhetorical skill, "insisting" on their existence...eg.: they must exist because "they are obvious", or without them "the world would be dangerous", or if they don't exist "why should I bother teaching, or getting out of bed".

But "insisting"/"demanding" is not the same as PROOVING. Your argument that there are objective values, JUST BECAUSE THERE ARE - that they are obvious, doesn't work for me...because they simply are not obvious to me.

Sure, I'd like to believe in them as much as you do. But I'd also like to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, that good always triumphs over evil, life-after-death, destiny, the brotherhood of man etc etc etc. Wanting to believe in something seems to be enough in your eyes to make it real. In my eyes, it doesn't even come close. I demand more from people, especially when they are claiming cultural superiority.

And if your values ARE indeed objective, why do you prefix them with "personally", or "I think"? If they are objective your personal views or what you think is irrelevant to them, as indeed are human beings in general.

[camden]

Originally posted by Peter:

Why should I have to justify it? Isn't it enough that Beethoven gave us such GREAT music? I've mentioned the musical criteria I would use before (and you agreed with me!), however I do accept that to a pop fan those criteria would probably be meaningless - but that is a position of ignorance, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, but if they have no understanding of harmony, rhythm, musical history or simply have never really listened to Beethoven, how can they understand what I am saying?

[/B]

How much mongolian music do you know? Gamalan music? How much Robert Johnson? How many French or German Rock bands have you heard? What's your knowledge of Finnish folk music like? Have you ever been to Africa and listened to traditioal drumming music?How many CDs of Kylie have you heard? How many Gregorian chants do you know and sing? Can you explain to someone how Boulez's chord-multiplication in Pli-selon-Pli works? What about Ligeti's micropolyphonie in his 2nd String Quartet? Can you play the Sitar?

If you can't give an affirmative answer to each and every one of these questions, you are in no position to claim ignorance on behalf of others.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
How much mongolian music do you know? Gamalan music? How much Robert Johnson? How many French or German Rock bands have you heard?

I don't see what Mongolian or Gamalan music has to do with this in any respect as we are comparing Beethoven in particular with western pop music in general. Without wishing to be boastful I suggest my knowledge of western music (pop,folk, classical, jazz)whilst maybe not rivalling the greatest musicians(if I can use such a subjective term without incurring your wrath!) is greater than you're average Kylie fan's knowledge of Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
I wonder if I am speaking the same language as you at all Peter. All I have asked you to do is to PROOVE to me the existence of these objective values. You haven't, as far as I can see, even tried to do this yet. All you are doing is, albeit rather forcefully and with great rhetorical skill, "insisting" on their existence...eg.: they must exist because "they are obvious", or without them "the world would be dangerous", or if they don't exist "why should I bother teaching, or getting out of bed".

This whole debate is one of semantics rather than music. I have presented musical criteria which you simply do not accept. In which case we must agree to differ.

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'Man know thyself'

[Pam]

Try some Brahms babe, it worked for me.

[Claudie MICAULT]

...... Peter you are very patient indeed !


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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Pam:
Try some Brahms babe, it worked for me.

How did the Brahms help you Pam? Ah yes! You must have been suffering from insomnia??!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Vipercat]

Originally posted by Rod:
How did the Brahms help you Pam? Ah yes! You must have been suffering from insomnia??!!

That's quite a funny one Rod! ;-)

[Claudie MICAULT]

I don't know why but BRAHM's music makes me very nervous after 15 minutes : I must stop it or I become angry (and normally I am a very patient person)... I could not sleep after hearing his music !!!

The nicest musical sleep I had was in OPERA GARNIER (I was 22 years old so not used to sleep during the day-time -as still now anyway !) was during "PELLEAS et MELISANDE" from DEBUSSY !

[musicalmooses]

Hello Michael. I too have been bored with listening to the same old rock. I got into fusion and some hard core jazz but for the last few years I have become totally hooked on Beethoven and Mozart. The more I listened the more I realized there was something different, something half-hidden that made the listening experience almost addictive. I have accumulated almost all of the major works that B has written. For starters I would recommend sampling from each of the different forms: symphony, piano sonata, string quartet , piano concerto, violin sonata. My initial pics would be: Piano Sonata #23 (opus 57) , Symphony #7 (opus 92) , String Quartet #15 (opus 132) , piano concerto #4 (opus 58), Violin Sonata #9 (opus 47). These represent some of the group of pieces that may not be the most recognizable (i.e. the 5th, the 9th , the Moonlight Sonata) but do begin to lead into the more challenging compositions. After these, move onto the following (I hear something new every time I listen to them):

- Mass in D (opus 123) "Missa Solemnis"
- Piano Sonata #32 (opus 111)
- Piano Sonata #29 (opus 106)
- Piano Sonata #31 (opus 110)
- String Quartet #15 (opus 131)
- String Quartet #16 (opus 135)
- Symphony #3 (opus 55)
- Symphony #8 (opus 93)
- Violin Concerto (opus 61)
- Cello Sonata #3 (opus 69)
- Name Day Overture (opus 115)
- Diabelli Variations (opus 120)
- Leonore III Overature (opus 72b)

For early works, its cool to hear how much energy and invention B had before he broke out with the 3rd symphony. Check out

- Piano Sonata #4 (opus 22)
- Symphony #1 (opus 21)
- Cello Sonata #1 (opus 5)
- Piano Sonata #17 (opus 31/2)
- Piano Sonata #21 (opus 53)
- Eroica Variations (opus 35)

All of this stuff is amazing - I'm even getting my kids into it. Almost all of the above is readily available in a good music store (although I had to really hunt for the "Name Day Overature" - but it was worth it). Good luck and enjoy.