newbie

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:


I do think that Classical music is under attack and needs to be defended from arguments that portray it as old fashioned music that has no place in today's society - this is a view held by the majority of young and middle-aged people and encouraged by the pop industry.

I can't agree that classical music is necessarily "under attack." Rather I think the apathy of rising generations and the laziness of the same to put forth an effort to understand not only the art but history as well of the past. It takes effort to appreciate much of the classical music. If you want to compare pop music with classical you have to compare like with like--songs with songs, symphonies with symphonies, instrumental pieces with instrumental pieces. Otherwise there is too much vagueness and nothing can be resolved. Were the Beatles better songwriters than Schubert? Which is easier to listen to? Which has more substance in terms of thematic, harmonic, or rhythmic development? I personally get more out of Schubert's song cycles than I do out of the Beatles.

(And for what it's worth I actually ENJOY Weber's music!)

[camden]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] I'm sure we are! I agree entirely that we should be tolerant of all music and we shouldn't patronise anyone who doesn't share our tastes - from my experience it has always been those who have no time for classical music who are the most patronising, insulting and elitist, all coming from a perspective of ignorance as they simply have never bothered to listen to it!

I do think that Classical music is under attack and needs to be defended from arguments that portray it as old fashioned music that has no place in today's society - this is a view held by the majority of young and middle-aged people and encouraged by the pop industry.

Yes, but the problem is also from within CM itself. Commercial pressures are forcing artists (or their managers)to market the music in ways which are in fact distorting it in ways I don't personally like. It is now being stired into the same large pot as everything else. Not that this alters the music "itself" (although I'm uncomfortable with that concept if forced) but it mitigates against this tradition continuing as something living. What you end up with, as I said before, is a museum of artifacts. If this music is to survive it must remain part of a developing tradition, sitting alongside the work of living composers and exciting performers that challenge the way we view these pieces and our heritage.

Have you been into WH Smiths lately? You will see there what CM now means to the music industry. I remember as a teen buying a great many records in there. Now I'm to scared to even go in.

[bringdapayne]

I also do not think classical music is under attack. Although, if I was involved in it as you guys obviously are, maybe I would have a different view.

I believe that CM is simply being forgotten. Pop music today is what is easily accessible for someone with fewer and fewer amounts of free time on their hands. Our society is evolving into a being with a shorter attention span than ever before. It is hard for people to sit down, relax, and be exposed to CM, when corporations are stuffing modern music down their throats at every turn.

Most people dont listen to music for the music itself, as I believe the people in this forum do. Instead, they find something they identify with, demographically or socially, and listen to it. Its really not "about the music" for most people, its just "what is popular" or "what are my friends listening to."

Presently, many people do not identify with CM. Where I live, NPR is the only radio station that plays CM. The only time they hear CM is when a jewelry store commercial is on TV. Until CM is made more accessible to the everday person, the only new fans of this art are people like myself who seek it out, out of love for music itself.

[camden]

But that's exactly what I feel makes it worthwhile. Not to identify (either with a larger mass or an intellectual elite)- simply to be rewarded, on a personal level.

I'd rather it was just left alone than boiled down into something accessible. If you can't sell the music - any music on the merits of its artistic freedom, individuality, and originality, you aren't "selling it" at all really but just brainwashing people through media bombardment.

[bringdapayne]

Yes, there is something nice about discovering something, instead of having it crammed down your throat, isn't there?

[Peter]

Originally posted by bringdapayne:
I also do not think classical music is under attack. Although, if I was involved in it as you guys obviously are, maybe I would have a different view.

I believe that CM is simply being forgotten. Pop music today is what is easily accessible for someone with fewer and fewer amounts of free time on their hands.

Well CM is being forgotten because people are being continually brainwashed by pop! Wherever you go, whatever you watch - it is always there booming away - even a supposedly pleasant walk along the pier is hijacked with speakers every few yards blasting out noise! I don't think people choose pop so much as have it thrust upon them. There is too much noise in this world which is why I say CM is under insidious attack! The dominance of pop over all other music is symptomatic of a society that does not know how to relax, that continually lives life in the fast lane and quite frankly is terrified of silence! The results are clear to see - ever shrinking classical cd space in the shops and the correspondent financial disasters faced by many orchestras.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-07-2002).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by camden:
Please don't missunderstand me friends. I love Beethoven, and Bach...have done almost my whole life. As a teenager I went through a phase of listening to and playing almost nothing (literally nothing else) except Beethoven for about three years. I certainly don't think it's rubbish (or I would not visit this site!)

But if you really have been thinking "classical" music is "superior", Chopithoven, then I take pleasure in trying to pull the rug out from underneath you. It is very hard to find objective criteria for asserting that one type of music is somehow better than another, whether or not one feels it is, or however much one wants it to be. I would love to find a fullproof argument to proove that Beethoven's op.132, for instance, is really better than Phantom of the Opera (as I loath the latter). But what would it be? If I say, "the harmonies are just too simple" someone can say, "that's why I like it" or even worse..."the harmonies in op.132 are also simple in the slow movement, what's your point?". So I have to substitute "banal" for "simple", and then I reaslise that this is a subjective term and the ground dissapears from underneath me. (of course "simple" is a relative term anyway, but its rhetorical force has the appearance of objectivity, so it slips by.)

If you can proove to me that "classical" music really is superior, I would thank you for it as I have been trying to do so myself for many years.

Your impossibility of appreciating the evident greatness and superiority of the so called "classical music" (let's say the 400 years from the 16th century to the very beggining of the 20th century) might be based on a lack of intellectual capabilities. I'm not trying to be aggressive, but your disdain is suggestive.

[Stephen J. Wade]

Hmmmmmmm...... how the years have flown by since Ludwig walked among us. Do you think in his wildest dreams he imagined that, one day, his music would be all around the world. Still being performed and listened to into the 21st century.
Yes, todays music is more marketing and sex appeal than anything else. More hype perhaps than history-making.
I would share with you all some great local news here in San Diego. Our Symphony has been endowded to the tune of 120 million dollars. To ensure that 'Classical' music will have a place to remain vibrant and alive.
As to the several live performances I have been able to attend, I would have you know that there were hordes of people there. People who, no doubt, feel the same way you do about CM..... In the grand scheme of things, I would say Ludwig is holding his own. In a world where marketing matters more than substance, I'm glad I broke free and let CM move my heart. :-)

[Peter]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Our Symphony has been endowded to the tune of 120 million dollars. To ensure that 'Classical' music will have a place to remain vibrant and alive.

In the UK we don't seem to value our classical orchestras as much - compared to their European counterparts they are poorly funded. The Hanover Band is just the latest to find itself in trouble.

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

Well, I think it is pretty aggressive to accuse anyone's veiws as being the symptom of poor intellectual faculties, Chopithoven. That's tantamount to calling me stupid! ... and so I would reply simply "sticks and stones...etc"

Besides, I don't think that veiw could be derived from any of the arguments I have presented...., although I make no claims to infallibility (otherwise I would have no urge to discuss anything at all). Your contention seems to rest purely on the dogmatic assertion that anyone who sees the world differently than you must be stupid. (unless I misunderstand you, and I sincerely hope I do) Which is exactly the veiw I was opposing in the first place.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
Well, I think it is pretty aggressive to accuse anyone's veiws as being the symptom of poor intellectual faculties, Chopithoven. That's tantamount to calling me stupid! ... and so I would reply simply "sticks and stones...etc"

Again as in the Immortal beloved thread I believe you were right to mention this point about 'great' music - we shouldn't assume anything and we should be able to say why a composer such as Beethoven produced 'great' music - it's not enough to say 'because he did'!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Hmmmmmmm...... how the years have flown by since Ludwig walked among us. Do you think in his wildest dreams he imagined that, one day, his music would be all around the world. Still being performed and listened to into the 21st century.
Yes, todays music is more marketing and sex appeal than anything else. More hype perhaps than history-making.
I would share with you all some great local news here in San Diego. Our Symphony has been endowded to the tune of 120 million dollars. To ensure that 'Classical' music will have a place to remain vibrant and alive.
As to the several live performances I have been able to attend, I would have you know that there were hordes of people there. People who, no doubt, feel the same way you do about CM..... In the grand scheme of things, I would say Ludwig is holding his own. In a world where marketing matters more than substance, I'm glad I broke free and let CM move my heart. :-)

Maybe Beethoven wouldn't be so surprised that his music is so popular 200 yrs. later. He often thought his music was for a later time. Glad to hear the San Diego Orchestra was so well endowed financially. Here in Phoenix the Symphony Orchestra is struggling and this after a season of over the top ticket sales. Some members are even going elsewhere in the country where the salary is much more. I hope they do something here to rectify it and fast!

Joy

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by camden:
Well, I think it is pretty aggressive to accuse anyone's veiws as being the symptom of poor intellectual faculties, Chopithoven. That's tantamount to calling me stupid! ... and so I would reply simply "sticks and stones...etc"

Besides, I don't think that veiw could be derived from any of the arguments I have presented...., although I make no claims to infallibility (otherwise I would have no urge to discuss anything at all). Your contention seems to rest purely on the dogmatic assertion that anyone who sees the world differently than you must be stupid. (unless I misunderstand you, and I sincerely hope I do) Which is exactly the veiw I was opposing in the first place.

First of all, I never said you were stupid or that all those who disagree with me are stupid. Probably I misused the concept 'intellectual capabilities'. I should have used 'perceptive capabilities'. I mean that pop or rock (or any 'non classical genre' - and I hate to use that term but it seems it's installed here) are profoundly inexpressive to me. I remember that in the Beethoven vs. Mozart thread I said that 'there must be an absolute truth', and I think the same happens here, although the idea of 'great or superior music' is highly more subjective than the specific idea of which composer is better. This last thing is based on the predominating social mediocrity. Then, of course, we have the strictly musical inferiority, that is not absolute, but we cannot denie that the biggest part of the so called classical music is technically higher to almost ALL the non classical music. There are non-classical groups or soloists that make good works, but they are the smallest part of the bulk, a really diminute part, and they works, no matter how good they are, can't surpass a Mendelssohn (to say an intermediate composer). In the other side, tell me which classical composer is worst than those repetitive bass lines of Kylie Minogue? Should we call that thing music?

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Joy:
Maybe Beethoven wouldn't be so surprised that his music is so popular 200 yrs.
Joy

Of course! He thought that as a creator he was surpassed only by God.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
Maybe Beethoven wouldn't be so surprised that his music is so popular 200 yrs. later. He often thought his music was for a later time.
Joy

I agree, Beethoven was fully aware of his worth and what he had given the world.

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'Man know thyself'