newbie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I would suggest a higher proportion of pop music is rubbish, like 99.9%!

Maybe so, but the pop world makes no elitist claims to be high art whereas the CM world does. I would say, by volume, the majority of CM is rubbish if it claims to be art. Beethoven himself referring to the 'old composers' (baroque) that only Handel and Bach were any good - that writes-off a lot of 'high art'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Maybe so, but the pop world makes no elitist claims to be high art whereas the CM world does. I would say, by volume, the majority of CM is rubbish if it claims to be art. Beethoven himself referring to the 'old composers' (baroque) that only Handel and Bach were any good - that writes-off a lot of 'high art'!

Well quite frankly I'd rather listen to Dussek than Eminem or Madonna any day. These two are hugely influential over young people and they are referred to as 'artists' - a much debased word, and I suggest a pretty elitist claim to make for such mediocrities who make Salieri seem like a genius. Beethoven had high regard for composers other than the two you mention such as Gluck, Cherubini, C.P.E.Bach and Palestrina. He was also influenced by many others who you dismiss as tripe such as Forster, Dussek, Clementi. They may not have been 'great' but they were very highly talented which is more than can be said of virtually any pop group you care to mention. Most groups, can't sing, can't play an instrument, have no musical training (this of course doesn't matter in today's world) rely on electronic effects and others to write their songs - the whole scene is one of gross commercialism that would have disgusted Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well quite frankly I'd rather listen to Dussek than Eminem or Madonna any day. These two are hugely influential over young people and they are referred to as 'artists' - a much debased word, and I suggest a pretty elitist claim to make for such mediocrities who make Salieri seem like a genius. Beethoven had high regard for composers other than the two you mention such as Gluck, Cherubini, C.P.E.Bach and Palestrina. He was also influenced by many others who you dismiss as tripe such as Forster, Dussek, Clementi. They may not have been 'great' but they were very highly talented which is more than can be said of virtually any pop group you care to mention. Most groups, can't sing, can't play an instrument, have no musical training (this of course doesn't matter in today's world) rely on electronic effects and others to write their songs - the whole scene is one of gross commercialism that would have disgusted Beethoven.

You seem to be selecting for me what is 'tripe' and what isn't. Beethoven said what he said, don't blame me! With regard to singing you will be aware of my opinion that most CM singers can't sing either, they just scream, especially the sopranos, with a horrendous vibrato to make things even worse - from my experience it is this factor more than any other that puts people off CM, ie they like it until the singing starts!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-05-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:

If you can proove to me that "classical" music really is superior, I would thank you for it as I have been trying to do so myself for many years.

Well you don't seem to have a problem agreeing that Beethoven is superior to Dussek. Do you agree Beethoven is superior to Eminem or do you think it is just subjective and that we are all mistaken and deluded here? No one surely would say that Beethoven's 1st Symphony was greater than his 9th, so if we can make these distinctions why is it not possible to say that Beethoven's last quartets are superior to anything produced by the Beetles? I understand what you are saying about establishing criteria for greatness, it isn't easy and we have had this discussion here before in relation to other 'great' composers. I think it has to do with an instinctive reaction to something that is truly wonderful and beyond normal human experience - you don't need to be told that Beethoven's 9th is great, it reveals that if we have ears to listen and hearts to know the truth.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
You seem to be selecting for me what is 'tripe' and what isn't. Beethoven said what he said, don't blame me! With regard to singing you will be aware of my opinion that most CM singers can't sing either, they just scream, especially the sopranos, with a horrendous vibrato to make things even worse - from my experience it is this factor more than any other that puts people off CM, ie they like it until the sing starts!

Where does Beethoven say exactly 'only Handel and Bach were any good'? I'm not selecting what you regard as tripe, you have made your tastes pretty clear in the past, and you try to twist it to imply that Beethoven regarded the composers I mentioned with the same disdain that you clearly do. With regard to singers I suppose you'd rather have madonna singing Ah! Perfido than some dreadful Classical singer? What I don't understand is why there is a need on this of all forums to rubbish classical music when the pop industry (which you never say a word against) does this already. This forum should be defending not only classical music in general, but the many professional musicians highly trained and often poorly paid, who have dedicated their lives to performing and teaching to further the cause of what could so easily become an extinct art form to the detriment of all of us.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well you don't seem to have a problem agreeing that Beethoven is superior to Dussek. Do you agree Beethoven is superior to Eminem or do you think it is just subjective and that we are all mistaken and deluded here? No one surely would say that Beethoven's 1st Symphony was greater than his 9th, so if we can make these distinctions why is it not possible to say that Beethoven's last quartets are superior to anything produced by the Beetles? I understand what you are saying about establishing criteria for greatness, it isn't easy and we have had this discussion here before in relation to other 'great' composers. I think it has to do with an instinctive reaction to something that is truly wonderful and beyond normal human experience - you don't need to be told that Beethoven's 9th is great, it reveals that if we have ears to listen and hearts to know the truth.

The problem in the Cm world is virually a total lack of discernment. they may say that the 9th is great, but then they'll play something like, say, Mahler or Berlioz, and use the same word 'great' for that too. How can such an opinion be then respected? the classical CD depts are packed with forgettable noise whilst half of Beethoven's output has barely a single recording! I get the impression that in general a lot of CM fans just like the sound of these instruments in whatever ensemble, the actual quality of the music is incidental.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-05-2002).]

[camden]

I agree that the world of pop and its mass over-commercialism is quite frightening. But, in truth this is not confined to pop music but is a symptom of the malaise in culture generally.

When the Beatles came out, what they had to say was revolutionary, powerful and had nothing to do with "selling-out". Lennon said something like "I won't have men in suits dictating what we do!" But as the 70's came, and then the tragic 80's, pop degenerated into grotesque commercialism.

Classical music is no different these days. Its artists today suffer exactly the same fate as pop musicians do. It too has become the victim of commodification in exactly the same way. Adorno (the music philosopher)in a kind of premonition, referred to this as the "culture industry", wherby what you sell the public isn't challenging works of art (as they were intended, certainly as Beethoven intended!)but a nice little package of culture. You buy your 4.99 NAXOS CD of Mozart and buy not just the music, but an identity... the identity of an intellectual, classical music loving elite. Of course these motivations are alien to people like oursleves (I presume) who find in Beethoven beautiful, moving, challenging artistic statements with contemporary relevance. But more and more CM is assuming this role, whether or not we approve.

When Nigel Kennedy, and the three tenors started pedalling CM this way, it seemed a gimmick, almost funny. Now with every year, sadly, it becomes more the norm. On the other side of this is the authetic performance movement which is turning a once living musical tradition into a stunted collection of sterile musical artifacts fated to sit collecting dust.

[camden]

I agree that the world of pop and its mass over-commercialism is quite frightening. But, in truth this is not confined to pop music but is a symptom of the malaise in culture generally.

When the Beatles came out, what they had to say was revolutionary, powerful and had nothing to do with "selling-out". Lennon said something like "I won't have men in suits dictating what we do!" But as the 70's came, and then the tragic 80's, pop degenerated into grotesque commercialism.

Classical music is no different these days. Its artists today suffer exactly the same fate as pop musicians do. It too has become the victim of commodification in exactly the same way. Adorno (the music philosopher)in a kind of premonition, referred to this as the "culture industry", wherby what you sell the public isn't challenging works of art (as they were intended, certainly as Beethoven intended!)but a nice little package of culture. You buy your 4.99 NAXOS CD of Mozart and buy not just the music, but an identity... the identity of an intellectual, classical music loving elite. Of course these motivations are alien to people like oursleves (I presume) who find in Beethoven beautiful, moving, challenging artistic statements with contemporary relevance. But more and more CM is assuming this role, whether or not we approve.

When Nigel Kennedy, and the three tenors started pedalling CM this way, it seemed a gimmick, almost funny. Now with every year, sadly, it becomes more the norm. On the other side of this is the authetic performance movement which is turning a once living musical tradition into a stunted collection of sterile musical artifacts fated to sit collecting dust.

[camden]

Peter,
I "prefer" Beethoven to Dussek (as did the rest of us in the lecture I mentioned)and to Kylie Minogue. But to say it is "superior" is a different Kettle of Fish, and a claim that has no literal significance as it is a relative term. If it is "superior" this implies a scale of comparison. What are the terms of this scale? ...money earned, number of recordings, number of works, size of works, size of head, number of books written about them, number of websites dedicated to them, vote by ballot...what? Then ,who has the authority to dictate these terms?: Beethoven? Me? You? God? Noone would ever agree about the definition, and so the term has no literal significance. It's useful only in that it carries rhetorical force.

And suppose I do say something inocuous like "Beethoven's 1st Symphony is a far greater work than his 9th because the latter work is far too long." Proove me wrong... or right, your choice.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
Peter,
I "prefer" Beethoven to Dussek (as did the rest of us in the lecture I mentioned)and to Kylie Minogue. But to say it is "superior" is a different Kettle of Fish, and a claim that has no literal significance as it is a relative term. If it is "superior" this implies a scale of comparison. What are the terms of this scale? ...money earned, number of recordings, number of works, size of works, size of head, number of books written about them, number of websites dedicated to them, vote by ballot...what? Then ,who has the authority to dictate these terms?: Beethoven? Me? You? God? Noone would ever agree about the definition, and so the term has no literal significance. It's useful only in that it carries rhetorical force.

This is the argument that praises everything and in effect praises nothing. If we cannot discern that Beethoven is a greater musician than Kylie Minogue, then we devalue Beethoven and we devalue ourselves. This is typical of what is happening in our society which worships mediocrity above talent - those with no talent cannot tolerate those who have it. This is reflected in our exam system where virtually everyone is awarded an A grade and offered a place at university. It is reflected in the huge financial rewards given to those without ability above those with it! Why should a young child bother to spend years slaving away at the piano when someone can be plucked out of nowhere having no musical background whatsoever, win a pop talent competition and be told that he is the equal in musical terms of Beethoven according to your logic? If you truly think this way, then nothing is of value.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
Where does Beethoven say exactly 'only Handel and Bach were any good'?

I'm pretty certain on this point, you'll have the details tomorrow.

Originally posted by Peter:

I'm not selecting what you regard as tripe, you have made your tastes pretty clear in the past, and you try to twist it to imply that Beethoven regarded the composers I mentioned with the same disdain that you clearly do.

I don't know where you got this 'twisting' idea, I used B's example to prove that somone big in the CM business could in a single sentence write off the vast majority of early music.

Originally posted by Peter:

With regard to singers I suppose you'd rather have madonna singing Ah! Perfido than some dreadful Classical singer?

Madonna could not do a worse job than the singers in the two recordings I have.

Originally posted by Peter:

This forum should be defending not only classical music in general, but the many professional musicians highly trained and often poorly paid, who have dedicated their lives to performing and teaching to further the cause of what could so easily become an extinct art form to the detriment of all of us.

Why do you think I'm at this forum and not a general CM one? Ask yourself the same question.

Beethoven and Handel performers will not become extinct as long as I have money in my pocket! I'm keeping the CM dept of HMV Oxford Circus going single handed! As for the other composers, let their fans look after them.

PS: Us in the Conference Management business are also overworked and underpaid.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-05-2002).]

[camden]

Peter,

I think you misunderstand me. I am in total agreement with you that the implications of postmodernity are frightening! All I am trying to do is articulate the problem as a real one, confronting all of us, without merely sweeping it under the carpet. You say I am "devaluing" CM, when all I am asking you (and others) to do is define what you mean by this word "value" when applied to music. What is this system of "value" in music and how does it operate? If we could all happily use it, seperating the wheat from the chaff with removed so-called "objective assessment", do you imagine perhaps that we would one day find one ultimate piece of music with "superior" value to all the others, and could dispense with all the billions of other inferior ones? What a neat, tidy, well-balanced.......and BORING world that would be.

Another way of putting it: If you think Kylie is inferior to Beethoven's 1st symphony, should we listen to Kylie? If not, then if you think Beethoven's 9th is finer than his 1st, by the same token, why listen to his 1st? I don't see the difference in argument.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
Peter,

Another way of putting it: If you think Kylie is inferior to Beethoven's 1st symphony, should we listen to Kylie? If not, then if you think Beethoven's 9th is finer than his 1st, by the same token, why listen to his 1st? I don't see the difference in argument.

I don't think Kylie is musically inferior to Beethoven, I know she is! This is nothing to do with what we should listen to which I agree is a matter of personal taste. I value all the diversity that there is, not just in classical, but in other types of music as well. What makes a great composer is not so much the material he uses, but what he does with it. A good example of this is Beethoven's Diabelli variations - the 'cobbler's patch' as B referred to Diabelli's theme. A simple theme stimulating the composer's mind to produce a wealth of ideas. If you want me to get technical we could talk about the use of harmony, melody, counterpoint, rhythm, technique, drama, structure, emotional complexity, orchestration, form etc and in all these Beethoven along with most classical composers can be shown to leave pop music standing. What really marks out a great composer is his unpredictability - unfortunately we tend to lose sight of this when the works are so familiar which is why it is important to try and hear each work as though it were for the first time.


I enjoy listening to other music forms as well, but just as we can recognise that Leonardo da Vinci was a greater artist than a child's painting by numbers effort, or that Shakespeare was a greater poet than Eminem, musical criteria can be applied to demonstrate the superiority of Beethoven over Kylie Minogue! This does not mean that we shouldn't listen to other music though.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-06-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:

I'm pretty certain on this point, you'll have the details tomorrow

I have the details now from the Tagebuch of 1815 'Portraits of Handel, Bach, Gluck, Mozart and Haydn in my room -- they can promote my capacity for endurance.' In 1824 he referred to 'great men such as Haydn, Mozart and Cherubini'.

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I have the details now from the Tagebuch of 1815 'Portraits of Handel, Bach, Gluck, Mozart and Haydn in my room -- they can promote my capacity for endurance.' In 1824 he referred to 'great men such as Haydn, Mozart and Cherubini'.

Did not Beethoven applaud Carl Maria von Weber as a composer of note as well at one time?