newbie

[Peter]

Originally posted by Michael:
At last, Peter, you have admitted that Beethoven is the greatest classical composer! On a previous thread, we failed to tie you down on that one.

Michael

Well I admit you've got me there, but I was speaking to someone new to Classical music and Beethoven in particular - I've no doubt that he will soon discover the delights of the other greats in time!

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Not to sound too elitist as our bringdapayne said, but wasn't classical music the only allowed topic in this forum?

[bringdapayne]

Chopitoven, we would not want to leave you out. So impart upon us your opinions of . . . . .Chopin's Etude in C Minor "Revolution."

[chopithoven]

It is a programmatic piece of music, where the ragy spirit of the Revolution is effused as the furious mood of the music demonstrates. Why did you need an explanation of this?

[bringdapayne]

I thought you were lonely.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by bringdapayne:
I thought you were lonely.

What?

[camden]

I am disturbed by this idea of musical "greatness", and the implication that classical music is superior to other types of music. The simple fact is that it isn't. 95 percent of so called "classical" music is rubbish, bluntly put. Forget Beethoven, Bach, Mozart - the obvious greats. What about Dussek, J C Bach, Pleyel and many others who have just been forgotten they were so bad? (Most of Vivaldi's music is boring and he repeats himself a lot, to take a more famous composer.)Beethoven's, Bach's and Wagners are exceptions, that is why they last. If you think about it, they don't come along that often either. It just seems like there is more "great" music there because it has been around, as a tradition, for hundreds of years. In comparison, Jazz is about 80 years old, rock less than that. What do you expect...a genius to appear every year?

As to the idea that classical music is somehow "technically" superior to pop music...well that isn't true either. Take the Beatles for example. Their acheivement on a harmonic level alone was astonishing. They managed to somehow synthesise an underlying blues harmonic outline with sophisticated enharmonic progressions, added note harmonies, eastern melodic inflections and rhythms..all within the 2 minute song format. On top of that there is the pioneering use of recording and beautiful lyrics. That kind of stylistic intergration is "technically" far more advanced than Beethoven's use of Russian folk songs in the op. 59 Quartets for example. But that doesn't mean I think Beatles songs are "greater" than op.59 because of it. I like them both...for different reasons, and sometimes for reasons I can't explain or don't feel inclined to.

Different music has differnet charms. I find it useful not to compare one on the terms of the other, otherwise one is bound to come off second best. For example: If you were to judge music by it's contrapuntal complexity, Bach would win, Puccini would lose; by rhythmic sophistication, Stravinsky over Beethoven; by melody, Tchaikovsky over Bach ....or maybe not, depending on the criteria you put forward for "good" melody.

Music is an artform, not a competitive sport or source of tribal identity...at least I feel it shouldn't be.

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
I am disturbed by this idea of musical "greatness", and the implication that classical music is superior to other types of music. The simple fact is that it isn't. 95 percent of so called "classical" music is rubbish, bluntly put. Forget Beethoven, Bach, Mozart - the obvious greats. What about Dussek, J C Bach, Pleyel and many others who have just been forgotten they were so bad? (Most of Vivaldi's music is boring and he repeats himself a lot, to take a more famous composer.)Beethoven's, Bach's and Wagners are exceptions, that is why they last....

I agree with your general sentiment in total. I have said myself often enough than most classical music is rubbish. However I would contend your list of accepted quality composers, for you have included Wagner...and ommitted Handel!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[bringdapayne]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by camden:
[B]I am disturbed by this idea of musical "greatness", and the implication that classical music is superior to other types of music. The simple fact is that it isn't. 95 percent of so called "classical" music is rubbish, bluntly put. Forget Beethoven, Bach, Mozart - the obvious greats. What about Dussek, J C Bach, Pleyel and many others who have just been forgotten they were so bad? (Most of Vivaldi's music is boring and he repeats himself a lot, to take a more famous composer.)Beethoven's, Bach's and Wagners are exceptions, that is why they last. If you think about it, they don't come along that often either. It just seems like there is more "great" music there because it has been around, as a tradition, for hundreds of years. In comparison, Jazz is about 80 years old, rock less than that. What do you expect...a genius to appear every year?

Well put Camden!

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
I am disturbed by this idea of musical "greatness", and the implication that classical music is superior to other types of music. The simple fact is that it isn't. 95 percent of so called "classical" music is rubbish, bluntly put. Forget Beethoven, Bach, Mozart - the obvious greats. What about Dussek, J C Bach, Pleyel and many others who have just been forgotten they were so bad? (

I would suggest a higher proportion of pop music is rubbish, like 99.9%! As for Dussek, if he were so dreadful one wonders why Beethoven's early music was influenced by him? The same goes for J.C.Bach and Mozart, Pleyel and Haydn. An awful lot of the music from the 18th century has undeservedly been forgotten (I recommend a cd of 18th century Symphonies on Naxos which include many of these forgotten composers such as Vanhal and the very fine Joseph Kraus)- being forgotten is not a sign of having been dreadful; Handel's operas have been neglected for centuries and J.S.Bach was forgotten for many many years! Indeed much of Beethoven's music has been forgotten which is why we have the rare Beethoven page on this site!

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

I am disturbed by this idea of musical "greatness", and the implication that classical music is superior to other types of music. The simple fact is that it isn't. 95 percent of so called "classical" music is rubbish, bluntly put. Forget Beethoven, Bach, Mozart - the obvious greats. What about Dussek, J C Bach, Pleyel and many others who have just been forgotten they were so bad? (Most of Vivaldi's music is boring and he repeats himself a lot, to take a more famous composer.)Beethoven's, Bach's and Wagners are exceptions, that is why they last. If you think about it, they don't come along that often either. It just seems like there is more "great" music there because it has been around, as a tradition, for hundreds of years. In comparison, Jazz is about 80 years old, rock less than that. What do you expect...a genius to appear every year?

[chopithoven]

OH! We've been thinking for many years that genius' music was superior and now we find that all the music is rubbish! Thanks Candem!

[Stephen J. Wade]

Each in his/her own way discovers the subtle influence and sometimes 'earth shattering' ways that music moves the listener. If you are moved by it.....it is great music, indeed. If you are moved to reach out and create your own 'music' by it.....then a precious gift is given back to the world to honor that moment when the spirit of music touched your heart. For there is no greater composer then those who have paused long enough to capture moments of human dignity and share them with the world at large. The same spirit that tickled and teased and tormented Ludwig and Lennon, arises in the hearts of those whose dedication to uplifting dignity is the driving force in the 'symphonies' they bring to the world. )
I wait, patiently, to hear the composers in this forum and of the greatness herein.

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Stephen

[camden]

Please don't missunderstand me friends. I love Beethoven, and Bach...have done almost my whole life. As a teenager I went through a phase of listening to and playing almost nothing (literally nothing else) except Beethoven for about three years. I certainly don't think it's rubbish (or I would not visit this site!)

But if you really have been thinking "classical" music is "superior", Chopithoven, then I take pleasure in trying to pull the rug out from underneath you. It is very hard to find objective criteria for asserting that one type of music is somehow better than another, whether or not one feels it is, or however much one wants it to be. I would love to find a fullproof argument to proove that Beethoven's op.132, for instance, is really better than Phantom of the Opera (as I loath the latter). But what would it be? If I say, "the harmonies are just too simple" someone can say, "that's why I like it" or even worse..."the harmonies in op.132 are also simple in the slow movement, what's your point?". So I have to substitute "banal" for "simple", and then I reaslise that this is a subjective term and the ground dissapears from underneath me. (of course "simple" is a relative term anyway, but its rhetorical force has the appearance of objectivity, so it slips by.)

If you can proove to me that "classical" music really is superior, I would thank you for it as I have been trying to do so myself for many years.

[camden]

By the way, I have heard Dussek's music which was supposed to have influenced Beethoven (actually I thought it was vice versa, but nevermind). I once went to this lecture by someone all about Dussek "the English Beethoven". It was comic. We sat and had to listen to Dussek's "Pathetique Sonata", also in C minor (and other things). It really was,...well pathetic! So much so that the whole room was just in hysterics at this poor lady who was desperately trying to convince us he was unfairly neglected. It was so bad it begged belief! An experience I will never ever forget.

I think I went straight to a piano afterwards to play through Beethoven's op.13, just to retore my then tattered musical bearings!