Why the C written for the double basses in Beethoven's 5th symphony, 2nd movement?

[Enrique]

In said movement Beethoven writes a C_1 (three octaves below the piano central C) for the double basses. It happens during the first tutti. Now, looking at the score, you'll be able to see this is the only place in the whole symphony where he writes the double basses in such a way that a note lies bellow the double bass 4th string, thus making impossible for the instrument to play it.

But in the 3rd and 9th symphonies something simmilar happens. Namely, nowhere in the score the double basses have a note below the range of the instrument. Now suppose the same thing happens with the rest of the symphonies. I'm speaking about the 3rd, the 5th and the 9th. If it happened that the same happens with the 7th, then we would have that in all the symphonies where the master makes use of a large orchestra the are no "extra" notes for the double bass.

But then the question arises: why did Beethoven do this only in a single measure in a single movement of a single symphony? Because I'm sure neither in the 1st, nor in the 2nd nor in the 4th nor in the 6th nor in the 8th there are extra notes for the doublee basses. Can somebody answer the question?

[Zevy]

In said movement Beethoven writes a C_1 (three octaves below the piano central C) for the double basses. It happens during the first tutti. Now, looking at the score, you'll be able to see this is the only place in the whole symphony where he writes the double basses in such a way that a note lies bellow the double bass 4th string, thus making impossible for the instrument to play it.

But then the question arises: why did Beethoven do this only in a single measure in a single movement of a single symphony? Because I'm sure neither in the 1st, nor in the 2nd nor in the 4th nor in the 6th nor in the 8th there are extra notes for the double basses. Can somebody answer the question?

The second time this occurs in the same movement, in m. 80, there are two "C"s in the staff (on the same stem); one below the staff and one on the second space. I would assume that one is for the Basses and the other for the Cellos. The first time, in m. 31, where there is only the C below the staff, is probably a simple mistake.

I found a second score where this was "corrected", and most probably the original had it this way Bottom staff for Basses and top for the Cellos):

[Enrique]

So you think it is just a mistake and not one done by Beethoven but by some publisher? I have the score and had never realized that the first occurrence is different from the second one! You say on the same stem? I swear I never noticed it.

A question: Beethoven used different staves for celli and basses in the 2nd movement? I have a Ricordi edition and I see the same staff is being used by both celli and basses.

[Zevy]

So you think it is just a mistake and not one done by Beethoven but by some publisher? I have the score and had never realized that the first occurrence is different from the second one! You say on the same stem? I swear I never noticed it.

A question: Beethoven used different staves for celli and basses in the 2nd movement? I have a Ricordi edition and I see the same staff is being used by both celli and basses.

The publisher will very often place them on the same staff in order to conserve space.

[Enrique]

The second time this occurs in the same movement, in m. 80, there are two "C"s in the staff (on the same stem); one below the staff and one on the second space. I would assume that one is for the Basses and the other for the Cellos. The first time, in m. 31, where there is only the C below the staff, is probably a simple mistake.

I found a second score where this was "corrected", and most probably the original had it this way Bottom staff for Basses and top for the Cellos):

What is m. 80? Is it measure (bar in US) number 80?

[Enrique]

The publisher will very often place them on the same staff in order to conserve space.

Ahhh...

[Zevy]

What is m. 80? Is it measure (bar in US) number 80?

Yes

[Enrique]

The second time this occurs in the same movement, in m. 80, there are two "C"s in the staff (on the same stem); one below the staff and one on the second space. I would assume that one is for the Basses and the other for the Cellos. The first time, in m. 31, where there is only the C below the staff, is probably a simple mistake.

I found a second score where this was "corrected", and most probably the original had it this way Bottom staff for Basses and top for the Cellos):

You were right! I've just downloaded from IMSLP.ORG an Eulenberg edition from 1938 (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.5...en,_Ludwig_van), complete score, editor Max Unger). The cellos and basses are written exactly as in your attached image. By the way: what is n.d.[1938] in "Publisher Info. Leipzig: Ernst Eulenburg, n.d.[1938]"?

[Zevy]

By the way: what is n.d.[1938] in "Publisher Info. Leipzig: Ernst Eulenburg, n.d.[1938]"?

It's probably something that our German speaking friends can answer.

[Enrique]

One thing I don't see quite clearly. In Mozart's time the basses always played one octave below the cellos. But this made the portion of the cello register between C_2 and Eb_2 unusable. C_2 is the open 4th string in the cello. That is to say, in an orchestra the cellos would never play their four lower notes. This is because, as the basses are playing an octave below the cellos, they lack these four notes. But this is hard to believe. Was this really so?

[Zevy]

One thing I don't see quite clearly. In Mozart's time the basses always played one octave below the cellos. But this made the portion of the cello register between C_2 and Eb_2 unusable. C_2 is the open 4th string in the cello. That is to say, in an orchestra the cellos would never play their four lower notes. This is because, as the basses are playing an octave below the cellos, they lack these four notes. But this is hard to believe. Was this really so?

I believe that in Mozart and Beethoven's times the music written for the Cellos went down to as low as the open C, and the music for the Basses went down to their open E. Music for Bass is always written an octave higher than it actually sounds. If the cellos and basses are playing in "unison", then they are usually only reading in unison but sounding an octave apart. And if the music dips below that C, the bass will play in actual unison. I hope this isn't too confusing.

[Arno]

How to play a low C on a double bass

Hello all,

If you read the Wikipedia article on double basses, you can find answers how it can be played. In the part about tuning you can read that there are several options of playing this low C. I am a member of an amateur orchestra and I have seen two of the solutions: the low C extension and a bass tuned in fifths (an octave below the cello). It works and it sounds really well.

Regards,
Arno

[Enrique]

I believe that in Mozart and Beethoven's times the music written for the Cellos went down to as low as the open C, and the music for the Basses went down to their open E. Music for Bass is always written an octave higher than it actually sounds. If the cellos and basses are playing in "unison", then they are usually only reading in unison but sounding an octave apart. And if the music dips below that C, the bass will play in actual unison. I hope this isn't too confusing.

Not at all. I already knew this was common practice even with three-string double basses. Thanks for your posts, Zevy.

[Enrique]

Hello all,

If you read the Wikipedia article on double basses, you can find answers how it can be played. In the part about tuning you can read that there are several options of playing this low C. I am a member of an amateur orchestra and I have seen two of the solutions: the low C extension and a bass tuned in fifths (an octave below the cello). It works and it sounds really well.

Regards,
Arno

The low C extension is a device existing in modern double basses, I think (But I'll read the Wikipedia article again anyways). As to the basses tuned in fifths I had never heard of it. I suppose you have to have special strings supporting the extra tension.