immortal

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Chris:
~IB~, that's what he was saying!!!

Stephen saying he's Not?

[Chris]

He was saying that he agrees that Beethoven was a heterosexual, not a homosexual.

[Peter]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
I mean, since you guys started wondering about Beethoven-perhaps-being-gay, some of you were on the edge of getting mad because the fact would shatter your perfect little Beethoven-world. You guys (and I'm talking about the BEETHOVEN WAS SO NOT GAY shouters) should be more open to suggestions like this.

Well provide some evidence then.

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'Man know thyself'

[FeRdInAnD]

This isn't about evidence. It's about putting that BLOCK away from your face. And by the way, I'm not looking 'for some gay musician' to admire. What's going on here isn't my business really. I'm just critisizing you guys. I never said I believed that Beethoven was gay. What I am sarying is that in his case it's harder to suggest that he wasn't gay. He never got married, the letters were very mysterious, Karl attempted suicide, etc. Be a little bit more open. Put that BLOCK away and UNLOCK the door.

[FeRdInAnD]

Anyhow, I'm shutting up, this discussion could get out of hand.

[Peter]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
Anyhow, I'm shutting up, this discussion could get out of hand.

Just as well as you seem now to want us to consider the possibilty that Beethoven may also have been an incestuous paedophile. It is not a question of having a block in the face, it is a question of evaluating the facts and not twisting them to suit your own theories. Getting married in the 19th century was no more a guarantee of heterosexuality (Tchaikovsky for example)than remaining a bachelor was of homosexuality.

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'Man know thyself'

[Claudie MICAULT]

After much troubles to reach the site I am back.
The translation I used for the site BEETHOVEN EN FRANCAIS comes directly from the fac-similé of the BEETHOVEN-HAUS.
But I can put you all quiet : even if BEETHOVEN did not use the term "women" (Frau) when he wrote "never another can have my heart...", in German it is clear it is a women because of the grammatical ue of the feminine gender : "Keine andere" (for a man it would have been "Kein ander".

And forget at all the idea of Karl... do you remember hwo old was Karl in 1812 ??????????
I hope nobody is thinking about Beethoven as a "pedophile" now ?

The trouble of the translations are clear with this sample : SOLOMON wanted to do an homosexual of Beethoven... so he "forgot" the german grammatic.

That told, I have nothing againts homosexuals : my best friend is gay ! But I really think in case of Beethoven it is a nonsense.

When Hummel came to see him on his deathbed he still expressed his regrets he had not a wife...

[Claudie MICAULT]

I forgot the most important phrase, which gave the title to to letter :
"... dir meine Unsterbliche Geliebte"... the gender is female of course...



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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
What I am sarying is that in his case it's harder to suggest that he wasn't gay. He never got married, the letters were very mysterious, Karl attempted suicide, etc. Be a little bit more open. Put that BLOCK away and UNLOCK the door.

Listen Mister, I'm not married yet I've given a number of fortunate ladies the time of their lives, and I'm not finished yet.

There is no block, the door is not locked, the evidence is there for all to see, more so in the IB letter. There is nothing mysterious in this letter or any of the others - and I've got a volume full of B's letters. And the insinuation that B had the hots for his own nephew - JESUS!! The trouble has always been that there are too many fools, Solomon most of all, that are more interested in their own agenda than the truth.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-01-2002).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
I forgot the most important phrase, which gave the title to to letter :
"... dir meine Unsterbliche Geliebte"... the gender is female of course...

I'm afraid basic things like this will not be enough for some people Claudie.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Joy]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
After much troubles to reach the site I am back.
The translation I used for the site BEETHOVEN EN FRANCAIS comes directly from the fac-similé of the BEETHOVEN-HAUS.
But I can put you all quiet : even if BEETHOVEN did not use the term "women" (Frau) when he wrote "never another can have my heart...", in German it is clear it is a women because of the grammatical ue of the feminine gender : "Keine andere" (for a man it would have been "Kein ander".

And forget at all the idea of Karl... do you remember hwo old was Karl in 1812 ??????????
I hope nobody is thinking about Beethoven as a "pedophile" now ?

The trouble of the translations are clear with this sample : SOLOMON wanted to do an homosexual of Beethoven... so he "forgot" the german grammatic.

That told, I have nothing againts homosexuals : my best friend is gay ! But I really think in case of Beethoven it is a nonsense.

When Hummel came to see him on his deathbed he still expressed his regrets he had not a wife...

Of course it's all nonsense this talk of Beethoven being gay or anything remotely resembling a pedophile. It's a shame people have to write books for their own agenda because people who haven't read anything else on Beethoven or studied him possibly would believe this book they chose to read.

How come you had so much trouble finding the site??

[Joy]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
He never got married,

[/B]

I really hope you're not insinuating that just because some guys 'never got married'
that they are gay. I think an awful lot of bachelors would disagree with you!

[Claudie MICAULT]

Originally posted by Joy:

Of course it's all nonsense this talk of Beethoven being gay or anything remotely resembling a pedophile. It's a shame people have to write books for their own agenda because people who haven't read anything else on Beethoven or studied him possibly would believe this book they chose to read.

How come you had so much trouble finding the site??

What makes me very sad is that : with all the documentation we have about Beethoven, still some people like SOLOMON can put in the head of people : making such a nonsense put is book down for Beethoven's connoisseurs. Maybe he just wanted to make some money with this book ! There is also a generation infatuated with the STERBA's book. I can imagine that other people will write other books taking references from SOLOMON and the STERBA in the next 100 years.

Why I could not reach the forum... well I do not know honnestly. But Peter helped me kindly to be back...

It is nice for a woman to have a friend who is gay... it is also very nice to know that all men are not gays !




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Claudie

[Rod]

Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
What makes me very sad is that : with all the documentation we have about Beethoven, still some people like SOLOMON can put in the head of people : making such a nonsense put is book down for Beethoven's connoisseurs.

The worst thing about Solomon for me is not his third rate publications, but the fact that so many scholars recommend, and draw from, S's amateurish scribblings!! Hell will freeze over before I believe Antonie Brentano is the Immortal beloved. I will go no further about S's psychoanalisis, which is beyond a joke.

I remember years back reading his 'Beethoven Essays'. At that time I had no opinions either way about Solomon other than the knowledge that he was a respected Beethoven researcher, but after finishing the book I was annoyed and disillusioned. I thought God I could have done a better job of it myself!!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-04-2002).]