immortal

[camden]

I understand now.

[Melanie]

Originally posted by camden:
I am pretty sure you are right, but this disturbing possibility has been suggested to me before and I wondered if you could assist in debunking the theory.

Fortunately, my girlfriend is Austrian and could I find the original texts in German would be happy to clarify the point. She tells me that German is actually quite subtle regarding gender, for example refering to "my love" as "mein leibe" indicates a male addresse, wheras "mein leiber" indicates a female...for example. She also tells me that you can obscure gender, and it would be obvious if he were doing so. Interesting, I think and explains the hidden dangers of translation and using translated texts as source material.

Last night we were trying to find the letters in original German on the web without success....any ideas?

Hello Camden

I have a book by Marie-Elisabeth Tellenbach which has the letters in German. One line is "nie eine andre kann mein Herz besizen" [sic], which I would take to mean "no one else can ever possess my heart". I'm not a fluent German speaker, but I think the use of "eine" for "one" would indicate a female. Also, he refers to "meine Unsterbliche Geliebte", which also seems to be feminine. But, like I say, I'm not an expert on the nuances of German, so I think it's over to your girlfriend!

[camden]

Thanks Melanie,

My girlfriend is Austrian and has just read the sentences over my shoulder. She concurs that expressed this way it can only be addressed to a woman as the gender is quite specific.

Sorry to have wasted everyone's time on this, but at least now we can be certain the immortal beloved was not a man!

[Stephen J. Wade]

May I still love Beethoven with all my heart?

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by camden:

Sorry to have wasted everyone's time on this, but at least now we can be certain the immortal beloved was not a man!

Wasn't this obvious?

[NickB]

Originally posted by Rod:
Because one is a sublime work of supreme genius, and the other....is not...

Well, I for one enjoy the Rite of Spring QUITE a bit. Yes, it's grotesque, but then again, it's supposed to be, isn't it? Great theatrics.

Two days and counting until I leave for a holiday in Muenchen und Wien...

[Joy]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Wasn't this obvious?

Yes, it's always been pretty obvious!

[Joy]

Originally posted by NickB:
Well, I for one enjoy the Rite of Spring QUITE a bit. Yes, it's grotesque, but then again, it's supposed to be, isn't it? Great theatrics.

Two days and counting until I leave for a holiday in Muenchen und Wien...

What about Stravinsky's 'Firebird'?
Have a great time!!

[NickB]

Originally posted by Joy:

What about Stravinsky's 'Firebird'?
Have a great time!!

Honestly, I just haven't given much time to anything other than the ROS, so I just don't have much of an opinion.

Thanks, I'm still doing a bit of last-minute planning...trying to compile all the various webbied lists of B sights in & around Vienna.
Looks like the weather is going to be nice...

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
I have serious doubts that Ludwig was homosexual.

What???!!! Beethoven is a homosexual???? I don't think so stephen....where did you heard that? I bet THAT is a rumor or some sort.

[Chris]

He said he doubted it was true.

[Rod]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
What???!!! Beethoven is a homosexual???? I don't think so stephen....where did you heard that? I bet THAT is a rumor or some sort.

I think S was inferring that Beethoven was NOT homosexual, which just happens to be the case. However nor was he the home-breaker inferred by Solomon's IB hypothesis. The immortal beloved was NOT married - this I know virtually for a fact, and the problem was that B felt uncomfortable in this relationship because he wanted marriage, the obstacle to this marriage was either that the woman in question was ultimately not keen on the idea, or that her father would not have been keen on the idea and the affair was thus clandestine. Read the letter and it all becomes apparent, unless your name happens to be Solomon.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Stephen J. Wade]

Originally posted by ~Immortal Beloved~:
What???!!! Beethoven is a homosexual???? I don't think so stephen....where did you heard that? I bet THAT is a rumor or some sort.
Hi ~Immortal Beloved~ !! Someone had questioned whether Ludwigs' Immortal Beloved could have been a man. Now its entirely possible that it could have been, but I, personally, have my doubts.
Imagine if history were actually recorded they way it really happened and not filtered thru the eyes of so much subjectivity.
Homosexuals have brought and continue to bring beauty and art and inspiration into the world.
I love Ludwig for his music..... I do not hold it against him if he found love with a woman.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Hi ~Immortal Beloved~ !! Someone had questioned whether Ludwigs' Immortal Beloved could have been a man. Now its entirely possible that it could have been, but I, personally, have my doubts.

It's entirely IMPOSSIBLE that the immortal beloved was a man. Lets move on to a more sensible discussion, lest any newcomer to this place think we're all as thick as two short planks.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It's entirely IMPOSSIBLE that the immortal beloved was a man. Lets move on to a more sensible discussion, lest any newcomer to this place think we're all as thick as two short planks.

Exactly, I think this thread has established beyond any reasonable doubt that the IB was a woman!

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'Man know thyself'