immortal

[camden]

Does anyone know if the gender of the "immortal beloved" has ever been called into question by academics? i.e. whether it could have been a man, or even a boy (perhaps Karl, he did try to kill himself after all)? I don't speak German, but is there any reference to gender in the famous letter which could be obscured by translation? (is there a translated copy of it on this site i could look at, i can't find it and should read it again anyway.)

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
Does anyone know if the gender of the "immortal beloved" has ever been called into question by academics? i.e. whether it could have been a man, or even a boy (perhaps Karl, he did try to kill himself after all)? I don't speak German, but is there any reference to gender in the famous letter which could be obscured by translation? (is there a translated copy of it on this site i could look at, i can't find it and should read it again anyway.)

When you get round to reading the letter in English let us know what you think.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

I have just re-read it - the letter(or the three of them), and as I thought they don't seem to make reference to gender. In fact it seems suspicious to me they do not. Am I missing something in translation? Thinking over it, I beleive one would have to go to some measures to avoid making gender explicit in a letter such as this. Certainly Beethoven has been very cautious in other respects to keep the identity of this person very secret, even in what was undoubtedly intended as a private letter. Could there be an even greater reason for this secrecy than was ever expected hitherto?

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
I have just re-read it - the letter(or the three of them), and as I thought they don't seem to make reference to gender. In fact it seems suspicious to me they do not. Am I missing something in translation? Thinking over it, I beleive one would have to go to some measures to avoid making gender explicit in a letter such as this. Certainly Beethoven has been very cautious in other respects to keep the identity of this person very secret, even in what was undoubtedly intended as a private letter. Could there be an even greater reason for this secrecy than was ever expected hitherto?

I have looked at some of my recent email letters and none of them refer to my gender! Do they know something about me I don't?!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

I think I said "in a letter such as this", i.e. a love letter. But or course if you are regualarly receiving love messages by e-mail, by all means, congratulations to you!

Anyway, I only asked if the possibility had been considered that it may not have been a woman. Seems like one plausible explanation to me, and I am surprised it hasn't been discussed. Why are you so dismissive of the idea anyway? Perhaps it goes against the grain?

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:

Anyway, I only asked if the possibility had been considered that it may not have been a woman. Seems like one plausible explanation to me, and I am surprised it hasn't been discussed. Why are you so dismissive of the idea anyway? Perhaps it goes against the grain?

Surely the line 'no other woman can ever possesss my heart - oh God why must one be separated from HER who is so dear' settles the matter.

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

Aha, well the Solomon translation I'm reading goes as follows:

"No one else can ever possess my heart - never - never - Oh God, why must one be parted from one whom one so loves."

...genderless

Just as I suspected...translation ambiguity. Do you know which is closer to German?

[AlteGrafin]

About 50 years ago, Editha and Richard Sterba tried to make the case that Beethoven was a latent homosexual and had "unnatural" feelings toward Karl. They based this primarily on the fact that he behaved in a "motherly" fashion toward Karl. Their writing is very skewed, and uses highly emotionally charged descriptions rather than any evidence. For instance, they refer to Beethoven's "Fuhrer Personality"--imagine what their reading audience would think about that, when they were writing right after Hitler made the word "Fuhrer" (which started out meaning "leader") into a dirty word. There is no evidence whatsoever that their claim is true. Close examination of Karl's alleged suicide attempt shows that it is highly suspect and likely had not been genuine, but rather an attempt to both punish and gain control over his uncle. And not because of any "homosexual advances."

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
Aha, well the Solomon translation I'm reading goes as follows:

"No one else can ever possess my heart - never - never - Oh God, why must one be parted from one whom one so loves."

...genderless

Just as I suspected...translation ambiguity. Do you know which is closer to German?

There's Solomon for you! I took my quote from the Emily Anderson translation, but I have to say though I suspect the Anderson is more accurate, we really need the assistance of Claudie on this one.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by AlteGrafin:
About 50 years ago, Editha and Richard Sterba tried to make the case that Beethoven was a latent homosexual and had "unnatural" feelings toward Karl.

I think the whole notion of this is absurd. Unfortunately there is a website which promotes this as fact.

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

I am pretty sure you are right, but this disturbing possibility has been suggested to me before and I wondered if you could assist in debunking the theory.

Fortunately, my girlfriend is Austrian and could I find the original texts in German would be happy to clarify the point. She tells me that German is actually quite subtle regarding gender, for example refering to "my love" as "mein leibe" indicates a male addresse, wheras "mein leiber" indicates a female...for example. She also tells me that you can obscure gender, and it would be obvious if he were doing so. Interesting, I think and explains the hidden dangers of translation and using translated texts as source material.

Last night we were trying to find the letters in original German on the web without success....any ideas?

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
Fortunately, my girlfriend is Austrian and could I find the original texts in German would be happy to clarify the point. She tells me that German is actually quite subtle regarding gender, for example refering to "my love" as "mein leibe" indicates a male addresse, wheras "mein leiber" indicates a female...for example. She also tells me that you can obscure gender, and it would be obvious if he were doing so. Interesting, I think and explains the hidden dangers of translation and using translated texts as source material.

Last night we were trying to find the letters in original German on the web without success....any ideas?

I've looked at Claudie's translation into French and it concurs with the translation offered by Solomon, not Anderson, i.e no references to gender. I don't know what source Claudie used for this, but I'm sure she has access to the original. There are however other clues in the letters that point to a female recipient - would Beethoven had said 'Is not our love truly founded in heaven, and what is more, as strongly cemented as the firmament of heaven' had he been referring to a man? Beethoven was a religious man (though not devout) and I doubt he would have been so certain of heaven's blessing in an age that had no understanding of homosexuality.

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'Man know thyself'

[camden]

That is a very good point Peter, and a compelling argument. But of course Beethoven was also a strong champion of secular values, the brotherhood of man, indeed of human rights and equality in general. So there is no reason to believe his religious beliefs concurred with those of the status quo. Whether or not this stretched to tolerance for homosexuals...and further, to being a homosexual!!!!, I don't know. For, on the otherhand, he was very intolerant of what he perceived to be low sexual moral behaviour. Think of his opinion of his nephew Karl's mother on that count! Any evidence of his veiws in this area elswhere do you know?

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
That is a very good point Peter, and a compelling argument.

Dear Mr Camden, there never was an argument in the first place.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

Dear Mr Rod,
I thought "argument" could denote simply a line of critical enquiry. What term would you prefer?