immortal

[bringdapayne]

Yes, this thread does run the risk of shallowness. Especially, after most of you guys thoroughly impressed me with your discussion on my "newbie" thread.

My mother is German, and I speak (hack) a little German. "eine" definitely connotes a feminine subject. But, I dont really understand why it matters so much.

[Peter]

Originally posted by bringdapayne:
My mother is German, and I speak (hack) a little German. "eine" definitely connotes a feminine subject. But, I dont really understand why it matters so much.

I think the truth always matters and we do live in an age which delights in misrepresenting the facts, usually for the sake of ghastly political correctness! There are websites on Beethoven that spout all sorts of nonsense, this one aims to allow free debate on the issues but also to present the facts as they are known - Beethoven confided to Schindler (if we can believe Schindler!) that he wished the truth about himself to be known to the world even if it was harmful to his own reputation.

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'Man know thyself'

[Stephen J. Wade]

I agree with Peter. So much heresay and conjecture flys around the world from so-called experts.
I hadn't even considered that Beethovens Immortal Beloved could have been a man. When it came up in this forum, I took it for what it was, an inquiry. I can't imagine somebody devoting an entire website to it. Apparently some people have WAY too much time on their hands ;-) hehe

[chopithoven]

<font color="red">I'm not sure what you were trying to say with this post. It didn't make much sense. But whatever it was saying, it could easily have been seen as offensive. Whether or not that was intentional, I am removing it to avoid any problems or misunderstandings.

- Chris</font>

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 03-13-2002).]

[chopithoven]

If I resulted offensive to anybody, I apologize. I was trying to mean that I didn't know any genius gay. Maybe that aggressive word I used was very heavy. I apologize again, sincerely.

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Peter:
Exactly, I think this thread has established beyond any reasonable doubt that the IB was a woman!

I agree with you peter.

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
Hi ~Immortal Beloved~ !! Someone had questioned whether Ludwigs' Immortal Beloved could have been a man.

Hey Stephen! That is totally impossible stephen. There is no evidence on him loving or having affairs with a man! That's fake.

[FeRdInAnD]

Well, perhaps Beethoven is the first gay genius for you to know.

Originally posted by chopithoven:
If I resulted offensive to anybody, I apologize. I was trying to mean that I didn't know any genius gay. Maybe that aggressive word I used was very heavy. I apologize again, sincerely.

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It is the fool who says he is a wise man, it is the wise man who says he is a fool.

[Stephen J. Wade]

STOP IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!! Beethoven was completely and hopelessly HETEROSEXUAL!!!!!! I never meant to imply anything else by my statments. Other than that it is possible that ANYONE could be homosexual. It's not like I want to rewrite history, I just want the plain and simple facts to be known about all composers.
I'm tired of people hiding facts, obscuring history for thier own 'whatever' agendas.
Whoever Ludwig loved, as far as I'm concerned, is his own personal business.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
If I resulted offensive to anybody, I apologize. I was trying to mean that I didn't know any genius gay. Maybe that aggressive word I used was very heavy. I apologize again, sincerely.

Well I didn't see your original post, but I can assure you that heterosexuality does not have a monopoly on genius! History is full of great people who were gay, but Beethoven wasn't one of them! I couldn't care if we somehow dug up something that suggests he was - apparently there is evidence now to suggest that Schubert was gay (though I haven't seen it) and it makes not the slightest bit of difference to his music or to my opinion of the man! All I care about is the truth, and at present there is nothing to even imply Beethoven was gay. Can't we even discuss Beethoven without getting obsessed with sex?

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'Man know thyself'

[FeRdInAnD]

Wasn't Tchaikovsky gay as well? I really don't get it. I mean, since you guys started wondering about Beethoven-perhaps-being-gay, some of you were on the edge of getting mad because the fact would shatter your perfect little Beethoven-world. You guys (and I'm talking about the BEETHOVEN WAS SO NOT GAY shouters) should be more open to suggestions like this. I'm just not used to people being so closed when it comes to homosexuality. Probably because I'm from Holland (the only country in the world where Gay-marriages are allowed). I mean, look at the other suggestions and it's responses. The responses just aren't so determined, in those responses the BWSNG guys are WAY more open to other suggestions. Can't you at least TRY to be open to this, even though it might be sensitive and strange for you BWSNG folks. Just try it. Well, bye.

[Chris]

You don't understand - the problem is that he was obviously NOT gay. All the evidence is in favor of that. It is an intellectual travesty to try to attribute a characteristic to someone simply to further some agenda.

If he were gay, fine. But he wasn't. That's all it is.

If you're looking for some gay musician to admire, you have plently to choose from - just not Beethoven.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chris:
You don't understand - the problem is that he was obviously NOT gay. All the evidence is in favor of that. It is an intellectual travesty to try to attribute a characteristic to someone simply to further some agenda.

If he were gay, fine. But he wasn't. That's all it is.

If you're looking for some gay musician to admire, you have plently to choose from - just not Beethoven.

Well said, Chris!

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by Stephen J. Wade:
STOP IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!! Beethoven was completely and hopelessly HETEROSEXUAL!!!!!! I never meant to imply anything else by my statments. Other than that it is possible that ANYONE could be homosexual. It's not like I want to rewrite history, I just want the plain and simple facts to be known about all composers.
I'm tired of people hiding facts, obscuring history for thier own 'whatever' agendas.
Whoever Ludwig loved, as far as I'm concerned, is his own personal business.

I repeat! He is NOT A HOMOSEXUAL!!!

[Chris]

~IB~, that's what he was saying!!!