Question about 2nd subject in Piano Concerto #4...

[euphony131]

Question for you musicians and musicologists --

When exactly does the second subject (theme) appear in the 1st mvt of LvB's 4th Piano Concerto? Based on this performance by the incomparable Uchida, I'm assuming it's at 1:28. Then works up to a crescendo and then the first theme returns leading to the re-entry of the piano (at 3:11)?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvBQJjxw4c[/YOUTUBE]

Btw, I assume the start of the development is with the piano's return?

Thank you for any clarification!

[gprengel]

Dear, euphony, your questions I would - its very obvious - answer with YES . And the development starts at 8:03 - also very obvious. What a great movement ...

Gerd

[Chris]

What a great movement ...

Gerd

Definitely. I think it has some of the best orchestral climaxes in the repertoire, in the first exposition. It's hard for me to even make it through a listening of it without going back to replay those a couple of times!

[Megan]

Absolutely gorgeous piece. It's like listening anew with a tear in my eyes, refreshing and renewing to the soul.
If I live my life again I would devote my time to learning this piece - What an achievement that would be!

[euphony131]

I tempted to say it's even greater than the "Emperor." Certainly the slow mvt is soooooo original and arresting. Yes, we know the analogy to Orpheus and the Furies. But to me -- it almost has a scolding parent/pleading child quality...except the "child" turns out be pretty darn mature; in effect, the roles change by the end. Hey, I'm just free-wheeling here!

[Albert Gans]

I certainly would agree that the 4th is my favourite of the five piano concertos. Like often, it's the transitions that to me are the sublime moments, the dying away notes and ad libitum at the end of the second movement, followed by the ever so slight hesitation before going into the third movement... as if to say, do we really want to leave this wonderful place? Magical....
And my favourite transition remains between the 3rd and 4th movement of The 5th..... out of nothing comes majesty.
I never can listen to these pieces without being totally overwhelmed. However often I have played them, they never fail in their effect.

[gprengel]

I certainly would agree that the 4th is my favourite of the five piano concertos. ...

I certainly adore the 4th piano concerto, but still the 5th always will be number one, musically with so many magical moments , but also because of this one I have become a lover of Beethoven as an about 13year old teenager ... :-)

[Zevy]

Question for you musicians and musicologists --

When exactly does the second subject (theme) appear in the 1st mvt of LvB's 4th Piano Concerto? Based on this performance by the incomparable Uchida, I'm assuming it's at 1:28. Then works up to a crescendo and then the first theme returns leading to the re-entry of the piano (at 3:11)?

Yes!

[euphony131]

Is it always the soloist that starts the Development and Recapitulation in LvB's concertos?

I don't know if that was Classical form, but I understand Beethoven wrestled with form vs. content. Like he respected tradition but also strived for new ground.

[Zevy]

Is it always the soloist that starts the Development and Recapitulation in LvB's concertos?

I don't know if that was Classical form, but I understand Beethoven wrestled with form vs. content. Like he respected tradition but also strived for new ground.

I believe it was in this work (PC #4) where he broke the tradition and had the soloist begin. Then, in the 2nd movement, he had that "wrestling" between the orchestra and the soloist; also not the norm of the day.

[euphony131]

I believe it was in this work (PC #4) where he broke the tradition and had the soloist begin.

Zevy, I believe you mean the very start of the concerto?

I was referring to the Development and Recap specifically. If I'm not mistaken -- the soloist also starts those sections in Concerto #5. I just wondered, based on that, if that was typical. I guess it would make sense -- in terms of contrast -- since those sections are usually preceded by a tutti.

[Peter]

I believe it was in this work (PC #4) where he broke the tradition and had the soloist begin. Then, in the 2nd movement, he had that "wrestling" between the orchestra and the soloist; also not the norm of the day.

Mozart also had the piano open in his Concerto no.9, "Jeunehomme", but not in so striking a manner. Well what can we say about that 2nd movt of Beethoven 4, except that there is nothing else like it, so bold in its originality.

[euphony131]

Mozart also had the piano open in his Concerto no.9, "Jeunehomme", but not in so striking a manner. Well what can we say about that 2nd movt of Beethoven 4, except that there is nothing else like it, so bold in its originality.

Yes, yes, but what about the Development and Recap? I was wondering if the re-entries of the piano at those beginnings were also something new.

In my next life I'll try to come back as a musician.

[Zevy]

Mozart also had the piano open in his Concerto no.9, "Jeunehomme", but not in so striking a manner.

True, but the orchestra still opens first.

Well what can we say about that 2nd movt of Beethoven 4, except that there is nothing else like it, so bold in its originality.

Very, very original!