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    #1

    Contradiction

    I have been reading the text of the Ninth Symphony transtalted on this site and noticed a contradictory statement between the different vocal parts (I repeat, everything according to the translation in this site).

    First, in the principal chorus part, we can hear "All men become brothers, Under the sway of thy gentle wings". But then, the tenor, soprano and mezzo-soprano sing "All who can call at least one soul theirs, Join our song of praise; But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle". This last message is clearly excluding and even aggressive. Isn't this contrary to the message of brotherhood stated firstly?

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    #2
    Originally posted by chopithoven:
    I have been reading the text of the Ninth Symphony transtalted on this site and noticed a contradictory statement between the different vocal parts (I repeat, everything according to the translation in this site).

    First, in the principal chorus part, we can hear "All men become brothers, Under the sway of thy gentle wings". But then, the tenor, soprano and mezzo-soprano sing "All who can call at least one soul theirs, Join our song of praise; But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle". This last message is clearly excluding and even aggressive. Isn't this contrary to the message of brotherhood stated firstly?
    Note that all men become brothers "UNDER THE SWAY OF THY GENTLE WINGS." Sway connotes some form of persuasion or influence. Those that cannot conform to the conditions must "creep tearfully Away from our circle".

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      #3
      Originally posted by chopithoven:
      I have been reading the text of the Ninth Symphony transtalted on this site and noticed a contradictory statement between the different vocal parts (I repeat, everything according to the translation in this site).

      First, in the principal chorus part, we can hear "All men become brothers, Under the sway of thy gentle wings". But then, the tenor, soprano and mezzo-soprano sing "All who can call at least one soul theirs, Join our song of praise; But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle". This last message is clearly excluding and even aggressive. Isn't this contrary to the message of brotherhood stated firstly?
      The translation is accurate enough in that all the translations say much the same. I'm not sure about Sorrano's interpretation as it applies to the line about having a soul to call their own - I take this to mean a loved one of some kind or a child, and to be a person that is in turn loved. Thus the other line infers that if this does not apply to you it's your hard luck. The 'soul' line is ambiguous in English however. It could do with further clarification from a translator.


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      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-22-2002).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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        #4
        I think the "soul" line refers to being loved and being able to trust in a person and being trusted, in a condition of love in the highest point. The words "But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle" would then mean that if you are not trsuted or loved you cannot be part of the "Loving people's brotherhood" that appears in the choral line. And if you are not a part of that brotherhood you must not praise the Joy (Join our song of praise). This last thing is again excluding. Are there different words in other translations?

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          #5
          Originally posted by chopithoven:
          I think the "soul" line refers to being loved and being able to trust in a person and being trusted, in a condition of love in the highest point. The words "But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle" would then mean that if you are not trsuted or loved you cannot be part of the "Loving people's brotherhood" that appears in the choral line. And if you are not a part of that brotherhood you must not praise the Joy (Join our song of praise). This last thing is again excluding. Are there different words in other translations?
          This maybe so but we are speculating. The soul line has always perplexed me a little as is appears in English, but its meaning could perhaps be perfectly clear to a German national?

          ------------------
          "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
          http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

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            #6
            Please a german speaker!

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              #7
              Originally posted by chopithoven:
              I think the "soul" line refers to being loved and being able to trust in a person and being trusted, in a condition of love in the highest point. The words "But those who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle" would then mean that if you are not trsuted or loved you cannot be part of the "Loving people's brotherhood" that appears in the choral line. And if you are not a part of that brotherhood you must not praise the Joy (Join our song of praise). This last thing is again excluding. Are there different words in other translations?
              For me too it is exactly that. The translation on the site is OK anyway.

              The german text is :
              Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund ! Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle weinend sich aux diesem Bund.


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              Claudie
              Claudie

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