Arrangements

[Luis]

The other day a saw a CD with a Mahler orchestral arrangement of B’s string quartet No. 11, op.95. I didn’t listen it because I was running out of time but I have some curiosity on this issue now. Do you know some other good or interesting arrangements of B’s work?

[Peter]

The only acceptable arrangement is B's own arrangement of his Sonata in E Op.14 for string quartet - No others should be tolerated ! (I'm not particularly fond even of B's own arrangement of the Violin concerto for piano).Mahler also 'touched' up the orchestration of the symphonies and I think even the 'Hammerklavier' Op.106 may have been orchestrated. The Violin Concerto has also been arranged for Clarinet - really nothing is to be gained and much lost by these arrangements - Beethoven should be left alone - after all, he gave us perfection and no one really has the right to tinker about with the original.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

Don't forget B's arrangement of his Second Symphony for piano trio and his four-hand arrangement of the Grosse Fugue - both well worth a listen.
Michael

[chrisg]

Originally posted by Peter:
The only acceptable arrangement is B's own arrangement of his Sonata in E Op.14 for string quartet - No others should be tolerated <snip> - Beethoven should be left alone - after all, he gave us perfection and no one really has the right to tinker about with the original.

Another I find more than tolerable is the Charles Alkan solo piano arrangement of the first movement of Piano Concerto #3. For those not familiar with Alkan, he was Chopin's friend and next door neighbor for a time. Lizst knew him and his music well, and once remarked that Alkan was the only pianist in the world he felt intimidated by. The guy's music shows why; some of the most hair raisingly difficult piano music ever written.

Back to the arrangement. Alkan remains very faithful to the original for the most part, and somehow manages to get everything out of ten fingers. I say "for the most part" because Alkan tosses in an extended cadenza, complete with a thrilling passage from the finale of the 5th Symphony. This is available as part of a staggering recital by Marc-Andre Hamelin, "Live at Wigmore."

Adding the obvious, all of the Liszt transcriptions of the symphonies make for wonderful listening. Cyprien Katsaris gets my vote for these.

ChrisG

[Luis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B]The only acceptable arrangement is B's own arrangement of his Sonata in E Op.14 for string quartet

I have it. I like it.

- No others should be tolerated !

I don't agree.

(I'm not particularly fond even of B's own arrangement of the Violin concerto for piano).

Neither do I!

- 'Hammerklavier' Op.106 may have been orchestrated.

(Yes, by Weingarter, but I haven't find it yet)

- really nothing is to be gained and much lost by these arrangements -

(yeah, maybe)

Beethoven should be left alone - after all, he gave us perfection

(I can't discuss the last part!!!!)

- and no one really has the right to tinker about with the original.

(Personally, I don’t like conductors/performers that are supposed to be conducting/performing a “Beethoven work” and are actually doing another thing, because people who are listening or buying their interpretations are expecting to hear just “Beethoven”. But if the particularity of the interpretation or arrangement is explicit, I would let the people who are listening to it to determine if they like it or not. Maybe nothing is to be gained and probably they would like the original more, but the terms “more” or “less” don’t mean much here. If so, you would only listen only ONE version (which one you have considered the BEST) of a symphony; or you would think as Rod about period instruments -Because there is no doubt that is more “Beethoven”-). As I said on another thread, I can enjoy music without the comparison point (the “best” version or the “most” authentic) become absolute.

If there is an ethical issue behind this (respect to the composer original intentions), I don’t care so much. I my opinion the occasion while I’m listening to music is more an event of personal delight than a ritual in honor to the absolute geniusness of the composer.

Regards, Luis.

[chrisg]

Luis,

I'm new around here, so I'm not positive how literally to take Peter. Maybe he could have added one of those smiley things .

Looks like neither of you likes the Piano arrangement of the Violin Concerto. I'm curious as to which recordings you've heard of it.

cg

[Luis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chrisg:
[B]Luis,

I'm new around here, so I'm not positive how literally to take Peter. Maybe he could have added one of those smiley things .

I sometimes sound but I have a total attitude here and don't have any kind of trouble with nobody. It's just my English (which is awful) that makes me not understand this kind of things or express myself more clearly.

Looks like neither of you likes the Piano arrangement of the Violin Concerto. I'm curious as to which recordings you've heard of it.

Well, about the Piano arrangement of Op. 61. I think the expressiveness of the piece is can only be reached by the violin and neither it sounds like a piano concerto. My version might be not the best (Béla Drahos conducting the Nicolaus Esterházy Sinfonia with Jenö Jando at the piano, for Naxos) but I doubt another could surpass that problem.

Greetings, Luis.

[Peter]

Originally posted by chrisg:
Luis,

I'm new around here, so I'm not positive how literally to take Peter. Maybe he could have added one of those smiley things .

Looks like neither of you likes the Piano arrangement of the Violin Concerto. I'm curious as to which recordings you've heard of it.

cg

My views are always very clear ! One has to remember why arrangements were originally made - for the music loving public to perform and hear great works in there own home and as a source of extra revenue for the composer - as almost everyone has access to either recordings or concerts these day they really are redundant.When B arranged the sonata in E for quartet, he said he was convinced that no one else could have done it - those words should be enough to warn others from unnecessarily (and that is the point - it is unnecessary)tampering with the original. I don't recall the version of the arr. violin concerto I heard (it was a while ago) but remember B was specially asked to write it by Clementi as he felt that as a violin concerto it would recieve few performances in England - No one can possibly say that the piano version is preferable to the original - nor are Liszt's transcriptions (no matter how fine) of the symphonies - Liszt lived in an age when it was considered quite acceptable to virtually rewrite a composer's work - Chopin was frequently horrified by these embellishments.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-06-2000).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Luis:
If so, you would only listen only ONE version (which one you have considered the BEST) of a symphony; or you would think as Rod about period instruments -Because there is no doubt that is more “Beethoven”-). As I said on another thread, I can enjoy music without the comparison point (the “best” version or the “most” authentic) become absolute.

If there is an ethical issue behind this (respect to the composer original intentions), I don’t care so much. I my opinion the occasion while I’m listening to music is more an event of personal delight than a ritual in honor to the absolute geniusness of the composer.

Regards, Luis.

The authentic instrument argument is completely different to the arrangement issue - as no tampering with the original notes of the score is involved. We must have respect for every dot marked on the score (by any composer) or else where do you draw the line ? - do you say 'well that performer left out half the first movement, but I liked the way he played the rest' ? do you say 'wasn't it novel to hear the opening bars of the 4th piano concerto thrashed out fortissimo' ? - NO NO NO !!!!! - Unless every detail is properly observed, you are not listening to Beethoven but a complete travesty.

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'Man know thyself'

[chrisg]

Well, about the Piano arrangement of Op. 61. I think the expressiveness of the piece is can only be reached by the violin and neither it sounds like a piano concerto. My version might be not the best (Béla Drahos conducting the Nicolaus Esterházy Sinfonia with Jenö Jando at the piano, for Naxos) but I doubt another could surpass that problem.

Luis,

I havent' heard this one, but I'd expect this combination to be OK at worst. I've discarded a few boring ones, and remember Barenboim as being particularly dull. The performance that changed my mind about the piano version is by Olli Mustonen / Jukka-Pekka Saraste on London. The approach is very much like the real thing with Heifetz / Munch, which is to say it's not the usual too slow finale preceeded by two slow movements. Mustonen and Co. dig into the piece like they're having a great time, and it works for me as a fun supplement to, not a replacement for, the Violin Concerto.

cg

[This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 11-06-2000).]

[chrisg]

My views are always very clear ! One has to remember why arrangements were originally made - for the music loving public to perform and hear great works in there own home and as a source of extra revenue for the composer - as almost everyone has access to either recordings or concerts these day they really are redundant.

Why must anyone remember this to decide if they enjoy an arrangement? When skillfully done arrangements are played and enjoyed today, the reasons you cite are moot.

When B arranged the sonata in E for quartet, he said he was convinced that no one else could have done it - those words should be enough to warn others from unnecessarily (and that is the point - it is unnecessary)tampering with the original.

The necessity of making arrangements is not the point, and nobody here is trying to make it the point.


I don't recall the version of the arr. violin concerto I heard (it was a while ago) but remember B was specially asked to write it by Clementi as he felt that as a violin concerto it would recieve few performances in England - No one can possibly say that the piano version is preferable to the original -

So Clementi, famous composer and world renowned pianist, asked Beethoven to do a piano arrangement, which he would then publish in England along with the original. B says OK. What's the part you object to. As for anyone saying that the piano version is preferable to the original, no one here or in my experience ever has. What does this have to do with an excellent performance of the piano version being enjoyable in its own right?

nor are Liszt's transcriptions (no matter how fine) of the symphonies - Liszt lived in an age when it was considered quite acceptable to virtually rewrite a composer's work - Chopin was frequently horrified by these embellishments.

Correct. Liszt's transcriptions make for wonderful listening, without being preferable to the originals. When I listen to these, I hear Beethoven in a different way - not Liszt posing as Beethoven. Liszt made no secret of his supreme admiration for B's music, and to imply that his transcriptions are embellished rewrites along the lines of say, his opera transcriptions is just plain wrong. These are a homage to the master, where the vast majority of his other transcriptions were done as display pieces to show off with and get the ladies fainting in the aisles. BTW, I think they're great fun.

As for Chopin, he was pretty much a stuffed shirt generally, and was no doubt horrified by a lot of things Liszt did. I just don't think the Beethoven transcriptions were among them.

cg


[This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 11-06-2000).]

[chrisg]

If there is an ethical issue behind this (respect to the composer original intentions), I don’t care so much. I my opinion the occasion while I’m listening to
music is more an event of personal delight than a ritual in honor to the absolute
geniusness of the composer.

Regards, Luis.

Luis,

You need to get yourself into the spirit of this discussion, and stop making sense.

cg

[chrisg]

he authentic instrument argument is completely different to the arrangement issue - as no tampering with the original notes of the score is involved. We must have respect for every dot marked on the score (by any composer) or else where do you draw the line ? - do you say 'well that performer left out half the first movement, but I liked the way he played the rest' ? do you say 'wasn't it novel to hear the opening bars of the 4th piano concerto thrashed out fortissimo' ? - NO NO NO !!!!! - Unless every detail is properly observed, you are not listening to Beethoven but a complete travesty.

Peter, Mein Administrator - this is so good, I just don't know where to begin. Must think. Here in the US, we hear this "where do you draw the line" argument (successfully made with the proper bribes) from the likes of our National Rifle Association. Basically, take away my Uzi, anti-tank rocket launcher, etc., and next you'll be outlawing my kid's BB gun.


So what are your favorite Furtwangler recordings?

Regards,

cg




[This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 11-06-2000).]

[Michael]

One of B's most intriguing arrangements is that of the Wind Octet Opus 103 for string quintet (two violas as in Opus 29). The octet is an early work - the opus number is misleading - and here is a clear case of the arrangement being superior to the original. In fact, the string version amounts to a recomposition - just check the number of bars in each and the quintet emerges as a more expansive work. But it's just one more of those great works that have been ignored by performers and record companies.
If anyone has read Vikram Seth's recent novel "An Equal Music" - about the lives and affairs of a string quartet - you will find the quintet mentioned (it's actually opus 4)
along with another Beethoven arrangement, Opus 104, which is Opus 1 No. 3 arranged (again) for string quintet. Quite a large portion of the novel deals with one of the characters trying to track down a recording of those two pieces - and he had quite a job!
Since the novel came out, Supraphon have actually released on CD the exact recording mentioned by Seth, with these two works on it. (SU 3447-2111 if anybody is interested. Well worth listening to, but you'd better have a treble control on your amp - it's an early digital - 1977 - and a bit fierce in tone.)

Michael

[Peter]

Originally posted by chrisg:

Peter, Mein Administrator - this is so good, I just don't know where to begin. Must think. Here in the US, we hear this "where do you draw the line" argument (successfully made with the proper bribes) from the likes of our National Rifle Association. Basically, take away my Uzi, anti-tank rocket launcher, etc., and next you'll be outlawing my kid's BB gun.


So what are your favorite Furtwangler recordings?

Regards,

cg

I really don't see what your ridiculously alluding to nazi attitudes has to do with respect for a Beethoven score - my remarks were made in response to Luis saying 'If there is an ethical issue behind this (respect to the composer original intentions), I don’t care so much.' - well as a musician and a piano teacher, that is simply a position I do not agree with, even though you obviously do . If Beethoven asks for Forte /legato/ Staccato etc.. the performer should do it don't you think ? If he asks for Allegro Vivace, we shouldn't get Moderato - Beethoven was one of the first composers to give precise indications as to how his music should be played, I'm only saying that they should be faithfully observed.

P.S. For my favourite Furtwangler recordings see the recommended recordings on this site !
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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-07-2000).]