Classical Music's Ten Dirtiest Secrets

[Michael]

I'm really enjoying David Hurwitz's YouTube videos lately. He's outrageous at times and always a bit over the top, but there's more than a grain of truth in this little video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CMfzprf1Gg

Don't be put off by his remarks - he does know his stuff. He's just rattling a few cages here.





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[PaulD]

Interesting indeed. I agree with some of his statements. It is funny that after Mozart got a little whipping, Beethoven also got one for good measure although in this case it is only for one piece (the grosse fugue) and not for the fault of sounding the same.

The grosse fugue is not so much «ugly» as «weird» and «bizarre» in my opinion. It does not sound first quarter of the 19th century for sure. I played the CD to friends and family before and the reaction was always the same: a funny face of puzzlement with a «that doesn't sound so good». I don't think LvB wanted it to sound good. He was making a statement and that's what I have in mind when I listen to it once or twice a year. I tell myself: «What is he trying to tell me here?» I am still looking for the answer!

[Michael]

I first heard the Grosse Fuge in 1973 on a recording. I won't go so far as to say that I fully understand it - but I enjoy it and I prefer it to the substitute finale of Opus 130.

Oddly, I find only the first four or five minutes of "hairy" counterpoint quite difficult, but then comes a beautiful slower middle section and, after that, I find the rest of the movement easier to follow.

I read an article by a famous musician (I forget who it was) who said it took him or her twenty years to understand this piece.

I sometimes wonder if one can mistake familiarity for understanding.

[Chris]

I've been watching a good number of his videos lately too. To be honest, I find I agree with him less in these videos than in his reviews of CDs, which I found to be a valuable guide when I was building up my music collection. I especially disagreed with his thoughts on songs!

As for this video...

1. Mozart all sounds the same? Come on. Yes, because of his large output there is bound to be some repetition, but there is plenty of variety to be found.

2. Beethoven's Grosse Fuge is ugly? No way. Yes, it has dissonance and chromaticism, but it is far from ugly. It may be "fierce", but it is still beautiful. I found the piece instantly appealing on my first hearing of it, and I have only grown to love it more since then.

3. Wagner's operas are better with cuts? I'm not a huge fan of Wagner anyway, but getting out of the opera too late isn't much of a justification for this. At the time this music was written the pace of life isn't yet was it is now, so what were they in a hurry to get home for? And as for now, we can experience the music through recordings in whatever way is convenient for us. And even modern people spend as much time at sporting events.

4. I really don't care about any of the movements of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, so whatever.

5. I do agree with this one.

6. Eh.

7. What?

8. Liszt was no Beethoven, but he was far from "trash."

9. Never thought about it.

10. Yes, I have listened to all 200 of them, and yes, I dearly wish we could find the missing ones.

[Megan]

Who is this guy anyway, does he really understand music? He seems to be a self professed classical music aficionado talking crap.
Why should we judge classical composers mercilessly for heavens sake.
Classical music is given to us to enjoy. I really disagree what he says about Mozart, unless all is just a devilish wind-up. In which case I feel I wasted my time listening to him, even though I skipped over some of it.

[Michael]

He was really stirring things up in that video. He has literally dozens up on YouTube and he comes across as a more sensible person in most of them.

You can't entirely dismiss a man who wears a tie whenever he's discussing Beethoven's Ninth.




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[Megan]

He was really stirring things up in that video. He has literally dozens up on YouTube and he comes across as a more sensible person in most of them.

You can't entirely dismiss a man who wears a tie whenever he's discussing Beethoven's Ninth.

I've never come across him before.

[Decrepit Poster]

I've never come across him before.

Here you go....

(link) David Hurwitz Wikipedia page (link)

[Michael]

I've never come across him before.

I've only come across him in the past couple of weeks. I don't take most of his outrageous statements very seriously (and neither does he, I think.)

He can be quite sensible when he wants to - and his videos almost invariably deal with recording recommendations. He really does love "classical" music.

I never even thought to look him up on Wikipedia. (Thanks, Decrepit Poster, by the way.)

[Sorrano]

I first heard the Grosse Fuge in 1973 on a recording. I won't go so far as to say that I fully understand it - but I enjoy it and I prefer it to the substitute finale of Opus 130.

Oddly, I find only the first four or five minutes of "hairy" counterpoint quite difficult, but then comes a beautiful slower middle section and, after that, I find the rest of the movement easier to follow.

I read an article by a famous musician (I forget who it was) who said it took him or her twenty years to understand this piece.

I sometimes wonder if one can mistake familiarity for understanding.

I think too often we look at something in the wrong context. We hear, for example, some extreme dissonance in a particular work and decide we do not like the work because of that. What we fail to do is follow the work from beginning to end and get a gist of what the composer is trying to do. Beethoven takes us so far out of reach of the home key, then works back, but the journey with all its crags, peaks, and valleys is well worth it when we finally come home.

[Michael]

One of my top ten Beethoven pieces is the second movement of Beethoven's last quartet, Opus 135.

It's totally off the wall - full of rhythmic dislocations and dissonances that would bring water to your eyes - and yet it makes complete musical sense to me. It's totally exhilarating.
Briefly: I get it.

I can't say the same about portions of the Grosse Fuge but it's certainly not dissonance that's the problem. I love the rough counterpoint of the opening fugue, the beautiful slower middle section and the shenanigans towards the end.

It's actually like a miniature symphony, with an introduction, an allegro, a slow movement followed by something resembling a scherzo and a finale.
No wonder it works on its own, detached from Opus 130. But it's still much better when it follows the cavatina - like the uproar that follows the glorious adagio of the ninth symphony.

I must have heard it a hundred times in the last fifty years but it's still just beyond my grasp. Maybe full understanding of some works should remain unattainable, a Holy Grail if you like.




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[Sorrano]

In hearing the last movement of the 9th last night (Bernstein) there were parts I heard that previously did not fit in as well to me. However, in the context of that performance the whole sounded complete, all the parts were pertinent. Perhaps for me it was a difference of context and distancing (not social) that helped put this together for me.

I like the comment about the unattainable, the Holy Grail, and find that applicable for me in many cases with the later music of Beethoven. This past week brought me closer to understanding and appreciating some of these difficult works. (Sorry, I think I am on an off the topic tangent.)

[Enrique]

Interesting indeed. I agree with some of his statements. It is funny that after Mozart got a little whipping, Beethoven also got one for good measure although in this case it is only for one piece (the grosse fugue) and not for the fault of sounding the same.

The grosse fugue is not so much «ugly» as «weird» and «bizarre» in my opinion. It does not sound first quarter of the 19th century for sure. I played the CD to friends and family before and the reaction was always the same: a funny face of puzzlement with a «that doesn't sound so good». I don't think LvB wanted it to sound good. He was making a statement and that's what I have in mind when I listen to it once or twice a year. I tell myself: «What is he trying to tell me here?» I am still looking for the answer!

I have never liked either the last piano sonatas or the last quartets. And have always wondered how the man who was writing the Mass in D and the Ninth symphony could at the same time have produced such weird works. Not only the two sets of works were written by the same composer but he composed them at nearly the same time!

So, for me, this is a contradiction. How can one solve it? Very easily. By stating that chamber music is not worth a bit and that symphonic music is all that matters. At first sight this sounds like a heresy. But I think it contains an idea deserving to be developed.

[Michael]

Even David Hurwitz wouldn't go that far!

(Chamber music is symphonic too - in form anyway.)







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[Sorrano]

It took me awhile and some effort to warm up to chamber music in general, as far as listening goes. In composing I found it to be the medium I liked best. It took some careful listening and adjustments for me but I do enjoy listening to it now.