Could Mozart have done better...?

[PaulD]

Here is a thread I am starting, quite conscious it will probably cause some people to jump off and respond quickly. Allow me a bit of intro to this thread. For many years, i have been listening to the Discourses on Beethoven by the late Denis Matthews (the CDs are perhaps still available at this link: https://discourses.bandcamp.com/albu...ooks-discs-1-2)

Anyhow, in these discourses, the analysis of Beethoven's sketchbooks show, with musical passages to prove it, how Beethoven's kept improving and perfecting countless of his themes until he got what he was looking for. Sometimes, it took him months, years to get it right. As Matthews puts it: «Genius is the limitless capacity for taking pain».

Now, here is my question. Is it possible that Mozart, who apparently could compose and get it right almost on the spot (or with little subsequent modification) could have profited from working a little longer on his music...? Sorry to those of you who are Mozart's fans as well as Beethoven's. I certainly do not want to offend anyone. I am just curious to hear what people have to say.

[PaulD]

Oopps... In searching for «Denis Matthews» with the search engine of the forum, I found a thread in which a former member (now banned) was propagating theories that Mozart had been attributed the works of other composers etc etc... This is not the point of my thread!

[Peter]

Oopps... In searching for «Denis Matthews» with the search engine of the forum, I found a thread in which a former member (now banned) was propagating theories that Mozart had been attributed the works of other composers etc etc... This is not the point of my thread!

Yes that was a long time ago and if he hadn't been banned would doubtless still be posting on the subject today!

[Peter]

Here is a thread I am starting, quite conscious it will probably cause some people to jump off and respond quickly. Allow me a bit of intro to this thread. For many years, i have been listening to the Discourses on Beethoven by the late Denis Matthews (the CDs are perhaps still available at this link: https://discourses.bandcamp.com/albu...ooks-discs-1-2)

Anyhow, in these discourses, the analysis of Beethoven's sketchbooks show, with musical passages to prove it, how Beethoven's kept improving and perfecting countless of his themes until he got what he was looking for. Sometimes, it took him months, years to get it right. As Matthews puts it: «Genius is the limitless capacity for taking pain».

Now, here is my question. Is it possible that Mozart, who apparently could compose and get it right almost on the spot (or with little subsequent modification) could have profited from working a little longer on his music...? Sorry to those of you who are Mozart's fans as well as Beethoven's. I certainly do not want to offend anyone. I am just curious to hear what people have to say.

Whilst Mozart was certainly capable of working at speed (as was Beethoven if it was required of him) I think there is evidence that he did in fact refine his music more than was previously thought. There are however 2 examples that immediately come to mind of composers producing the most sublime works in and extraordinary short space of time - Mozart's last 3 symphonies and Schubert's last 3 piano sonatas that it is hard to imagine any refinement was needed!

[PaulD]

I suppose my question is flawed since it is impossible to know if a work of art can be improved (unless it is done by the original artist). Listening to the evolution of the Ode to Joy theme, I realized that the world could be humming a different (albeit slightly different) version of the theme had Beethoven decided to settle the matter earlier. Someone else could have tweaked the theme later on to make it similar to what we know today but perhaps Beethoven would have exclaimed: «That's not what I had in mind!». This is not to say that music cannot be improved: in my opinion, covers of popular songs are sometimes better than the original and orchestrations of solo instrument pieces often work quite well. I often think of art as a spark of inspiration that comes out completely formed while science must be slowly put together by observation and trial and error. In the case of Beethoven, his sketchbooks leave us with proofs that he was using a form of musical science in his art. He was certainly not the only composer to do that.

[Sorrano]

Bruckner might have had an opinion on the question.