Question about organ music

[Chris]

Organs can take on several different sounds. For example, it can sound like what you'd hear listening to Bach's "Little Fugue in G minor" (BWV. 578) or it can sound like what you'd hear in his "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" (BWV. 565). My question is, how do you know what sound the composer wants for a certain piece? I have seen much organ music, and there has never been an indication of what sound or specific kind of organ is needed.

[Peter]

I used to have organ lessons at school but gave up as a combination of pedals, stops, piano and violin seemed a bit too much! I seem to recall some of the music had suggestions written in, but with the older music it is surely a question of style, dynamics and experience.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Organs can take on several different sounds. For example, it can sound like what you'd hear listening to Bach's "Little Fugue in G minor" (BWV. 578) or it can sound like what you'd hear in his "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" (BWV. 565). My question is, how do you know what sound the composer wants for a certain piece? I have seen much organ music, and there has never been an indication of what sound or specific kind of organ is needed.

Well you can tell to an extent what is required by the notes on paper. I have all of Handel's organ concertos and it is clear that a grand instrument with rows of keys and pedals and stops is not required, but rather a much lower specified model as H would have had at his disposal in England. You could research the circumstances of the original composition - often a specific event or venue would have been in the composers mind and thus maybe a specific instrument . I've never had a taste for big organs personally...


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[PDG]

Originally posted by Rod:
I've never had a taste for big organs personally...

Relieved to hear it, Rod!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chris:
Organs can take on several different sounds. For example, it can sound like what you'd hear listening to Bach's "Little Fugue in G minor" (BWV. 578) or it can sound like what you'd hear in his "Toccata and Fugue in D minor" (BWV. 565). My question is, how do you know what sound the composer wants for a certain piece? I have seen much organ music, and there has never been an indication of what sound or specific kind of organ is needed.

I am not sure how composers prior the 19th Century (including B) handled organ registration, but often, I believe, in the 19th Century and more so in the current and 20th Centuries composers tend to put a general and specific (depending on the composer) registration on their scores. Since no two organs are the same the organist often has to substitute one stop for another. Registerations can only be general unless the work is written for a specific instrument.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
...I have seen much organ music, and there has never been an indication of what sound or specific kind of organ is needed.

It has occured to me that in baroque times chamber music was on occasion written without any indication of the instrument required whatsoever!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It has occured to me that in baroque times chamber music was on occasion written without any indication of the instrument required whatsoever!

Baroque times were confusing! Rarely any dynamics, no phrasing, just the notes and not always those as figured bass was common.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Well, figured bass is cool, but not knowing what instrument to play is simply retarded.

[jfienen25]

Hey Chris!
How have you been? I have been great over here in my small world. It is nice to get back and chat with you guys again. Since you are talking about organ music. The organ music has a suggestion on what stops to set on that certain piece or not. For example my father will look at it and decide if he can use it or not.

One nice thing about organ music you have the flexibilty as an organist to choose whatever stops or piston combinations you want. For example: since bach wrote alot of his music for the church I would use quiet stops like flutes or some reeds. Now if i was Widor Symphony number five for the organ I would let all out. You see it all has to do what the artist wants or what you think the piece needs. In Germany there are some organs that large and powerful, but also there are some organs that are big and powerful that still pack a pretty good punch. There new modern pipe oragns that you can actually sit down at the manuals and play them and record yourself play the piece. organs from the barogue period are going to be tiny in sound. Becuase they have to use people to produce the air for the organs. By pulling down on the bellows. Also todays organs are more powerful becuase we use bigger bellows that can run automatically by its self. Therefor we can get more bass sounding effect from the organ. Also you have to look at the acoustics of tthe place where you are playing. Some churches sound like someone put a carpeting inside of it so you do not hear any of the sound. Some people use concrete becuase they want to hear the organ resounate through out the church. Soem Symphony halls have very good acoustics so that way an organ will sound good.

I think it all has to do with what you think. My guestion to you is this. Did Bethoven actually write any music for the organ?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
Hey Chris!


I think it all has to do with what you think. My guestion to you is this. Did Bethoven actually write any music for the organ?

I have a record containing the "complete" organ works of B. Apparently, he wasn't particularly fond of the instrument (I recall reading that it was too much for his nerves), but he did compose a at least little bit for the instrument.

[jfienen25]

Hey Sorrano!

This is very interesting. I did not know that B had written for the organ. I guess I never asked my father about it who is an accomplished organist.



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jfienen25@yahoo.com if you are interested in talking more about B

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
Hey Sorrano!

This is very interesting. I did not know that B had written for the organ. I guess I never asked my father about it who is an accomplished organist.

These pieces are quite rare, I believe, and not among the published works (with opus number). I will dig through my record collection and see if I can get more info for you.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by jfienen25:
Hey Sorrano!

This is very interesting. I did not know that B had written for the organ. I guess I never asked my father about it who is an accomplished organist.

To follow up my promise in listing the organ works here goes:
Suite fuer ein Orgelwerk, WoO 33 (3 movements)
Trio in E Minor, WoO 55 (Adagio, Fugue)
Praeludium in F Minor, WoO 55
Fugue in C Major (1795) No catalogue number
Praeludium durch alle Tonarten, Op. 39, No. 1
Fugue cycle in D Minor on themes by J.S. Bach (1793) No catalogue number. Consists of 6 fugues.

Wilhelm Krumbach plays the organ (Koenig organ in the church at Schleiden)

[Michael]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
To follow up my promise in listing the organ works here goes:
Suite fuer ein Orgelwerk, WoO 33 (3 movements)
Trio in E Minor, WoO 55 (Adagio, Fugue)
Praeludium in F Minor, WoO 55
Fugue in C Major (1795) No catalogue number
Praeludium durch alle Tonarten, Op. 39, No. 1
Fugue cycle in D Minor on themes by J.S. Bach (1793) No catalogue number. Consists of 6 fugues.

Wilhelm Krumbach plays the organ (Koenig organ in the church at Schleiden)

I bought this same disc about eight years ago. It got a good review in a music magazine but the writer confessed that he never knew that B had composed so much organ music. The fact is that very few of the pieces on this CD were written specifically for organ. WoO 33 consists of three movements written for a mechanical clock, and most of the other works were originally composed for string quartet or piano, except for Opus 39 (and, incidentally, this "complete" collection includes only the first part of Opus 39!)
In fact the only other genuine organ music seems to be the "Bach" fugues and these were not compositions but exercises. More of these can be downloaded from the "Unheard Beethoven" site. They are in MIDI format only, but they sound quite organ-ic.
There is half an hour of organ music in the Complete Beethoven Edition and it contains both parts of Opus 39, a fugue in D (woO31) and a half dozen pieces for mechanical clock which have been arranged for organ.
So, discounting the exercises, it would appear that only about 15 minutes of B's genuine organ music has survived.

Michael

[Claudie MICAULT]

The préludes opus 39 are two (n° 1 and 2), written probably in 1789 and edited in 1803 by HOFFMEISTER - Leipzig. I always wonder why Beethoven have not written more organ music... maybe he was tired of it, as he was each days of his youth at six o'clock on service for the court at the organ.