The WoO and Hess numbers in Beethoven's works.

[Enrique]

The WoO number (Kinsky catalogue) I knew it. It applies to works without opus numbers and comprises a substantial part of Beethoven's early works. But, lately I was confused by the Hess cataloguing which I came in touch with through the 2020 DGG thread here. So I looked into Wikipedia and found this, which may be known stuff for some of you. In short, the Hess catalogue is a modernized or updated Kinsky catalogue and, hence, it does not affect the opus numbers.

[Michael]

Quite a lot of WoO works have Hess numbers as well so it can be a bit confusing.
In the new Rarities set (which is on YouTube) there are other catalogue numbers which I've never heard of before, such as Kafka and Kullack and Unv or something like that.

It's worth having a look at "The Unheard Beethoven" website which has been running for around twenty years. It has a vast amount of information about Beethoven's more obscure pieces (and I mean pieces). According to them, one catalogue runs to nearly 850 separate items!

https://unheardbeethoven.org/

[Chris]

According to them, one catalogue runs to nearly 850 separate items!

https://unheardbeethoven.org/

Yes, the Biamonti catalog:

http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti01.html
http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti02.html
http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti03.html

It's the most complete catalog, I think, though it includes a lot of sketches and things of that nature that most non-academics wouldn't care about.

[Enrique]

According to them, one catalogue runs to nearly 850 separate items!

But none of the 850 bears an opus number, right? And by the way, what is the number of works with opus number? As the mass in D has opus 123, if there are no holes in the sequence of opus numbers, then that number is 123 at least. Thanks for the link, Michael (but the MP3 files are just MIDI files converted to MP3!).

EDIT: How silly, in the wikipedia link I gave (post #1) is the answer. The nearly 850 (Biamonti), unlike the Hess catalogue, include all of the known Beethoven's output.

[Enrique]

Yes, the Biamonti catalog:

http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti01.html
http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti02.html
http://lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListBiamonti03.html

It's the most complete catalog, I think, though it includes a lot of sketches and things of that nature that most non-academics wouldn't care about.

Who is the Grove listed in your links? For instance Bia. 1 is WoO 63 and Grove 176. Is it the author of Dictionary of Music and Musicians?

[Michael]

But none of the 850 bears an opus number, right? And by the way, what is the number of works with opus number? As the mass in D has opus 123, if there are no holes in the sequence of opus numbers, then that number is 123 at least. Thanks for the link, Michael (but the MP3 files are just MIDI files converted to MP3!).

There are 138 works with opus numbers in the canon. Some of these contain multiple works, such as Opus 18 which consists of six works, etc. Opus 138 itself contains three overtures.
The list is roughly in chronological order but there a lot of early works which have been given misleadingly high opus numbers - not by Beethoven but his publishers.

Four of the works with opus numbers are, strictly speaking, not by Beethoven but are arrangements made by other composers: Opus 41 and 42, Opus 64 and Opus 104. They are not usually included in any "complete" edition.

There are about 218 works in the "Werke ohne Opuszahl" ("Works without opus number" usually abbreviated to WoO.")

Next come the Hess numbers which go up to about 300 (and maybe beyond - I'm working from a list I made several years ago). Confusingly, some of these are also included in the WoO list.
The Hess section can be a bit ridiculous; as I have mentioned before, one "work" is actually two seconds long!

I won't even attempt to deal with the Biamonti numbers. The three lists I mentioned are quite enough for me. I gave up on the Biamontis when I discovered that they contain a lot of spurious works which should not have been given a catalogue number.
There are many bits and pieces which, as Chris said, are only of academic interest and a lot of these can be accessed on the Unheard Beethoven website. Yes - they are MIDI files but, when it come to really obscure pieces, they are the only versions available to the best of my knowledge.

Regarding the "Grove" numbers I have no idea if refers to George Grove. There are so many other lists coming up that I can't keep track of them all. Maybe Chris can help?




.

[Chris]

Regarding the "Grove" numbers I have no idea if refers to George Grove. There are so many other lists coming up that I can't keep track of them all. Maybe Chris can help?

It is indeed George Grove. Here is the list:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_Dic...van,_catalogue

[Michael]

Yikes! Another list! Thanks Chris.

My favourite liszt is the guy who arranged the symphonies for piano.

[Enrique]

For those following this thread: The Hess catalogue does not include the works with opus number save for a small number of them as can be seen by inspection of this page, which lists the whole catalogue:

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Oeuvres/ListHess.html

The list is 335 items long.

There are 138 works with opus numbers in the canon. Some of these contain multiple works, such as Opus 18 which consists of six works, etc. Opus 138 itself contains three overtures.
The list is roughly in chronological order but there a lot of early works which have been given misleadingly high opus numbers - not by Beethoven but his publishers.

Thanks Michael for your post. Is that chronological order chronological order of publication or chronological order of composition? There must be some works which were published long after their composition by Beethoven, as is the case with the early works you mentioned. Also the date when the master completed the composition of a given work is perhaps more dificullt to know than the publication date. I think Breikoft und Hartel had something to do with the opus numbers assignment. More specifically, the edition of the complete works by that editorial house.

Yikes! Another list! Thanks Chris.

My favourite liszt is the guy who arranged the symphonies for piano.

Very good!

[Michael]

Thanks Michael for your post. Is that chronological order chronological order of publication or chronological order of composition? There must be some works which were published long after their composition by Beethoven. Also the date when the master completed the composition of a given work is perhaps more dificullt to know than the publication date.

The opus numbers were assigned on publication. Beethoven was very particular about these numbers. He had composed a great many works before the piano trios which he called his Opus One and after that only his more important works were given an opus number.

Of course, that didn't stop various later publishers from adding in some minor or earlier works and giving them an opus number wherever there was a gap in the list. For example, Opus 71, a wind sextet, was composed before Opus 1 - and as I mentioned earlier, four of the works with opus numbers were not even by Beethoven.

So the opus numbers are not a totally reliable chronological guide to either the composition or even publication of Beethoven's works.

[Enrique]

Thanks a lot Michael for your instructive posts. For those following this thread: Breitkopf und Hartel published the complete works between 1862 and 1888. They necessarily had to assign new opus numbers to a lot of works. If there were later editions I don't know. Then came Kinsky in 1955 and published his catalog (WoO).

Perhaps the opus numbers such as we know them today come from those complete works or later editions. And it can be said that what Kinsky did is to put WoO numbers to works not present in what in 1955 was the latest edition of the complete works by B&H.

EDIT: there must be a mistake in my reasoning for it contradicts Michael:

Of course, that didn't stop VARIOUS later publishers from adding in some minor or earlier works and giving them an opus number wherever there was a gap in the list.

[Michael]

Thanks a lot Michael for your instructive posts. For those following this thread: Breitkopf und Hartel published the complete works between 1862 and 1888. They necessarily had to assign new opus numbers to a lot of works. If there were later editions I don't know. Then came Kinsky in 1955 and published his catalog (WoO).

Perhaps the opus numbers such as we know them today come from those complete works or later editions. And it can be said that what Kinsky did is to put WoO numbers to works not present in what in 1955 was the latest edition of the complete works by B&H.

EDIT: there must be a mistake in my reasoning for it contradicts Michael:

You're probably right, Enrique. I was just relying on memory so maybe it was Breitkopf and Hartel alone that filled in the missing opus numbers - although in Beethoven's time some opus numbers were switched around even after publication.

What I cannot quite understand is how the gaps occurred in the first place. Beethoven was quite fussy about which works would be awarded an opus - but he mustn't have been keeping proper track of them.

Anyway, he was notoriously bad with numbers. Quite good with notes, though.

[Enrique]

What I cannot quite understand is how the gaps occurred in the first place.

That's a question I was about to ask: why the gaps.

Beethoven was quite fussy about which works would be awarded an opus - but he mustn't have been keeping proper track of them.

But there was close editorial collaboration between B&H and Beethoven. The former kept track of them too. Did Schubert works have an opus number once? For instance perhaps the radio speaker said: you have listened to the symphony no.5 in C minor, op. NNN by Franz Schubert.

[Enrique]

I made the question about Schubert because of the following. He already has his D. NNN numbers and Haydn the Hoboken numbers. So a time may came when Beethoven's works will only be known by the numbers in the Biamonti catalogue. No longer opus numbers for him. And the same goes for other famous composers: each one with his particular catalogue. We live in such a meticulous era!

[Michael]

I made the question about Schubert because of the following. He already has his D. NNN numbers and Haydn the Hoboken numbers. So a time may came when Beethoven's works will only be known by the numbers in the Biamonti catalogue. No longer opus numbers for him. And the same goes for other famous composers: each one with his particular catalogue. We live in such a meticulous era!

I agree! Too many lists. I love them and am fascinated by them but I regard them all as a distraction from the real thing.
I ultimately don't care if it's an Opus or a WoO or a Biamonti or a Gardi -

Let's just put on a CD or a vinyl and listen to the MUSIC!

(But keep on posting about those lists of composition. I can't resist them!
As long as our forum members can put up with it! )



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