At the base of Symphony No. 8

[Rod]

Originally posted by johnmlprn:
Haven't I read somewhere that there were sketches for the violin concerto to be the sixth piano concerto?

I have read a theory that B may have rejected his ideas for the '6th concerto' because the material sounded too similar to the violin concerto.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have read a theory that B may have rejected his ideas for the '6th concerto' because the material sounded too similar to the violin concerto.

This is getting confusing! The work that was to be the 6th concerto was begun in 1815 (and rejected for being too Symphonic) and has no relationship to the work that eventually became the 8th symphony (1812). However the thematic material from 1st mov of no.8 may have been originally intended for another earlier piano concerto - this I'm not convinced of though, as no one on this forum has yet been able to provide any evidence.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
This is getting confusing! The work that was to be the 6th concerto was begun in 1815 (and rejected for being too Symphonic) and has no relationship to the work that eventually became the 8th symphony (1812). However the thematic material from 1st mov of no.8 may have been originally intended for another earlier piano concerto - this I'm not convinced of though, as no one on this forum has yet been able to provide any evidence.

I am fully aware that the concerto sketches that may have been used for the 8th Symphony are not from that which we refer to as the '6th Concerto'. I will look into the matter of evidence, but I did read what I said above. I think you should give us some time to search first before you write the idea off. Not all of us have a music library close at hand!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by johnmlprn:

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
I read somewhere that Beethoven's plans for his symphony no. 8 in F-major are based on sketches for a 6th piano concerto. Is this true?

I have the book BEETHOVEN AND HIS NINE SYMPHONIES and after perusing the chapter on The 8th I see no mention of sketches for the 6th piano concerto. Haven't I read somewhere that there were sketches for the violin concerto to be the sixth piano concerto?

I have a recording of B's own transcription of the Violin Concerto into a Piano Concerto. It's quite interesting and the cadenza is quite a piece, including a duet with piano and timpani.

[FeRdInAnD]

To be honest, I am a supporter of the theory that the 8th symphony was based on a 6th concerto. There might have been sketches for a concerto three years after the 8th was written, but who knows it were plans for another concerto, which means that if the 8th had turned out to be a concerto the 1815 sketches could have turned out to be a 7th concerto. I agree that you shouldn't proclaim this theory of the 6th to be wrong, because there are a lot of sketches for symphonies and concertos and who knows what that went lost. I was just hoping that one of you guys had actual proof of a 6th concerto-8th symphony relation, but I think we should let the matter rest for a while, perhaps I can do some more research. If I find something, I'll tell ya. Bye!

Originally posted by Rod:
I am fully aware that the concerto sketches that may have been used for the 8th Symphony are not from that which we refer to as the '6th Concerto'. I will look into the matter of evidence, but I did read what I said above. I think you should give us some time to search first before you write the idea off. Not all of us have a music library close at hand!

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It is the fool who says he is a wise man, it is the wise man who says he is a fool.

[camden]

If anyone is so inclined (I am not), they could venture to e-mail Nicholas Marston at Oxford University, as I KNOW he knows where the evidence is as he pointed it out to me all that time ago. He's a formidable B scholar (collaborated with BN Cooper on B Compendium and quite approachable.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:
He's a formidable B scholar (collaborated with BN Cooper on B Compendium and quite approachable.

Pity they don't mention it in the B Compendium!

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'Man know thyself'

[FeRdInAnD]

Guess what. I finally found a little thingy refering to a link between the 6th concerto and the 8th symphony. It's a free translation of a Dutch book my grandpa has. It's written by Jos van der Zanden. 'The first movement of the 8th symphony in F major was in fact based on a 6th piano concerto. It is not sure why Beethoven has transformed it into a symphony. The sketches should not be confused with later sketches, dating from 1815.' I don't think it'll get us any farther then we already were, but still.. Someone actually wrote it in a book! And by the way, if you want to ask mr. Van der Zanden, I'm not sure you can, because I think he's dead. Or so I've been told. Anyhow, he's a great Dutch Beethoven-author. And by the way Camden, ask that professor of yours if he knows more about Jos van der Zanden and if he's still alive or something. I think I'm gonna contact him, if alive that is. Well, bye!



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It is the fool who says he is a wise man, it is the wise man who says he is a fool.

[camden]

Originally posted by Peter:
Pity they don't mention it in the B Compendium!

Funny, I also plowed through that again looking for the reference!