At the base of Symphony No. 8

[FeRdInAnD]

I read somewhere that Beethoven's plans for his symphony no. 8 in F-major are based on sketches for a 6th piano concerto. Is this true?

[Peter]

The 8th Symphony dates from 1812, whilst the sketches for the 6th concerto date from 1815 so it can't be correct! Incidentally if you are interested in hearing a midi version of the 6th concerto try the midi page on this site.
www.kingsbarn.freeserve.co.uk/midifiles.html

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[camden]

Are you sure about this Peter? Even if it isn't the same concerto, I also remember someone (Nicholas Marston I think)saying that the orginal sketches for 8th were originally as a pno conc (with piano parts etc) but after he got to the end of the exposition he abandoned that idea for the music. (Perhaps this is a theory that has recently been disproved somehow?)

I am sorry I don't have access to the literature to back this up where I am right now, but maybe I can do so later today.

[Rod]

Originally posted by camden:
Are you sure about this Peter? Even if it isn't the same concerto, I also remember someone (Nicholas Marston I think)saying that the orginal sketches for 8th were originally as a pno conc (with piano parts etc) but after he got to the end of the exposition he abandoned that idea for the music. (Perhaps this is a theory that has recently been disproved somehow?)

I am sorry I don't have access to the literature to back this up where I am right now, but maybe I can do so later today.

I too have read about the 8th having its origins as a concerto. Certainly the first movment.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I too have read about the 8th having its origins as a concerto. Certainly the first movment.

Well I'm going to a performance of the 8th tomorrow (Sunday) - interesting to see if the programme notes offer any info on this.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

When I went to a performance of the 8th a few weeks ago our program notes said nothing about this topic, only a short history of the 8th and Beethoven and the 'new world' composer we had to listen to at the start of the concert. Did your concert start with a new young composer or just get right to the heart of the matter?!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
When I went to a performance of the 8th a few weeks ago our program notes said nothing about this topic, only a short history of the 8th and Beethoven and the 'new world' composer we had to listen to at the start of the concert. Did your concert start with a new young composer or just get right to the heart of the matter?!

The concert began with Schubert's unfinished - Britten's Serenade for Tenor Horn and Strings was inflicted prior to Barber's adagio which was more of an andante!The 1st mov of the Beethoven 8th was as usual lacking in Brio, and the Allegretto was totally without Scherzando! There was no mention in the notes of the Symphony having been sketched originally as a concerto.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
There was no mention in the notes of the Symphony having been sketched originally as a concerto.

Surely you don't expect to learn anything of particular interest from concert programmes?!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Surely you don't expect to learn anything of particular interest from concert programmes?!

You should read some I've written in the past - I've always found them highly educational!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Rutradelusasa]

Listening to the main theme, I don't see how one - even B- could transform that to a piano concerto, examining his other concertos maybe you'll see the same pattern, the theme is played several times, from forte to piano or vice-versa, tonic and other key - back to tonic, this doesn't happen in any of his symphonies, so I can't see how that could once ba a concerto.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Listening to the main theme, I don't see how one - even B- could transform that to a piano concerto, examining his other concertos maybe you'll see the same pattern, the theme is played several times, from forte to piano or vice-versa, tonic and other key - back to tonic, this doesn't happen in any of his symphonies, so I can't see how that could once ba a concerto.

After stumbling through a piano reduction score I agree that this doesn't work so well for piano. Perhaps after developing his ideas B could see that it would not work for piano.

[camden]

I think it is safe to assume Beethoven would have radically altered the piece in converting it to a symphony, as Peter's discussion of Beethoven's arrangement of his own e-major sonata for string quartet will contest. So the fact that it doesn't work well for the piano doesn't suggest much. Anyway, I seem to remember that B only got as far as the exposition before changing his mind, and the exposition tends to be orchestral in anycase. Besides this symphony is very different than those around it(...but then again, all B's symphonies are very different to each other).

I just wish I could remember where I read about this, it was about ten years back mind, but I can remember it was based on an actual sketch for the piece, so the theory had some weight behind it.

[Peter]

Originally posted by camden:

I just wish I could remember where I read about this, it was about ten years back mind, but I can remember it was based on an actual sketch for the piece, so the theory had some weight behind it.

I don't totally dismiss this idea as I also seem to recall reading something about the theme of 1st mov 8 being originally sketched as a piano concerto. However, none of my current sources refer to it so I would be interested if anyone can back this info up.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[johnmlprn]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
I read somewhere that Beethoven's plans for his symphony no. 8 in F-major are based on sketches for a 6th piano concerto. Is this true?

I have the book BEETHOVEN AND HIS NINE SYMPHONIES and after perusing the chapter on The 8th I see no mention of sketches for the 6th piano concerto. Haven't I read somewhere that there were sketches for the violin concerto to be the sixth piano concerto?



------------------
schwartz

[FeRdInAnD]

Whew I see that I started quite a discussion about the 8th symphony.. It still isn't all clear to me, but still, thanks for your attention.

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
I read somewhere that Beethoven's plans for his symphony no. 8 in F-major are based on sketches for a 6th piano concerto. Is this true?