How well did Beethoven know Mozart's symphony in G minor?

[Enrique]

I am fully aware that practically any musician can create music in his head. However, we are not discussing ordinary work, but music at its highest level, involving complex orchestration - and all this without the technical and emotional feedback the composer gets from actually hearing his work performed or rehearsed. He had to rely mainly on his aural imagination.

I read somewhere that Beethoven thought his themes as being played by a determined instrument. To say it another way, theme and orchestration where one and the same thing or the themes were already orchestrated within his head. If the themes were, they're development too. One way to explain this is that he, as a young man, played viola in an orquestra. There he could learn how each instrument sounded and fix it in his brain.

Almost certainly, at this time, Beethoven could not hear any of the high frequencies properly.

high frequency loss = lack of timber. For instance flute and clarinet are almost indistinguishable at some place in there registers. The same goes for the violin and the viola. And this, for a person perceiving high frequencies perfectly well.

This may be the reason why so much of his middle period orchestration favours the basses and cellos.

Stravinsky once said in BEethoven the orquestration was neutral. Woodwinds and metals give the colour.

[Peter]

But both Mozart and Beethoven put an augmented forth degree after the rocket. That is not found in the sonata:

Mozart:    D - G - Bb - d - G - Bb - A - C#
Beethoven: G - C - Eb - G - C - Eb - D - F#

I'm not sure where you get an augmented 4th (after the arpeggio for the last two notes you get a fall of a semitone followed by a major 3rd) - yes the intervals are the same in both and both modulate to the dominant. I'm not saying it is of no significance because Beethoven had clearly copied the Mozart into his sketchbook, but it isn't such an extensive influence in terms of the character of the whole work as in the case of Mozart's A major quartet or his C minor concerto which Beethoven clearly modelled his Op.18/5 and 3rd concerto on.

With Beethoven it's possible to find the influence of his contemporaries as well as earlier composers. For me one of the most startling is his 6th symphony which was clearly influenced not by the music itself but by the idea of Knecht's own 'Pastoral symphony'. Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony in 1785 titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreable songs.' Now it is certain that Beethoven knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

[Enrique]

Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony in 1785 titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreable songs.'

I do not know the music but the title alone (Nature raises....) is worth a great composition.

In Beethoven 5th/3rd movement opening F is the fourth degree of the scale. Now he writes F#, as shown in my post, that is he uses the augmented fourth degree. Your post is very instructive.

[Michael]

With Beethoven it's possible to find the influence of his contemporaries as well as earlier composers. For me one of the most startling is his 6th symphony which was clearly influenced not by the music itself but by the idea of Knecht's own 'Pastoral symphony'. Justin Knecht (1752-1817) had written a symphony in 1785 titled 'The musical portrait of nature' which has a five movement plan with a first movement describing a beautiful sunlit countryside, a storm in the 3rd movement and the finale titled 'Nature raises her voice towards heaven offering to the creator sweet and agreable songs.' Now it is certain that Beethoven knew of this work, even if he never heard it performed - Sir George Grove discovered that this symphony by Knecht was actually advertised on the cover of Beethoven's early 'Electoral' sonatas WoO47.

I believe Beethoven was influenced by the actual music as well as the programme of Knecht's symphony (which leads me to believe that Beethoven may have heard it, or read it - or maybe found it on YouTube.)

There is a huge resemblance between the opening of the earlier symphony and the finale of Beethoven's Pastoral.
Knech's movement and Beethoven's both employ the "ranz des vaches" (or the Swiss "yodel").

That, and the fact that Knecht's symphony was advertised on the published copy of the "Electoral Sonatas" would seem to clinch it for me - but I'm no musicologist.

However, no less a person than John Eliot Gardiner drew attention to this in a TV documentary which I remember seeing about 20 years ago.

(Knecht's work is actually growing on me as I write.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP2QW21cqcM





'

[Peter]

I believe Beethoven was influenced by the actual music as well as the programme of Knecht's symphony (which leads me to believe that Beethoven may have heard it, or read it - or maybe found it on YouTube.)

There is a huge resemblance between the opening of the earlier symphony and the finale of Beethoven's Pastoral.
Knech's movement and Beethoven's both employ the "ranz des vaches" (or the Swiss "yodel").

That, and the fact that Knecht's symphony was advertised on the published copy of the "Electoral Sonatas" would seem to clinch it for me - but I'm no musicologist.

However, no less a person than John Eliot Gardiner drew attention to this in a TV documentary which I remember seeing about 20 years ago.

(Knecht's work is actually growing on me as I write.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP2QW21cqcM


'

I confess to only hearing it very recently myself, but possibly Beethoven had a cd Sir George Grove purchased the score and parts of J.H. Knecht's work at Otto Jahn's sale, and concluded that 'beyond the titles the resemblances between the two works are obviously casual, Knecht's being in addition commonplace, entirely wanting in that expression of emotions which L.v. Beethoven enforces.'

[Enrique]

This thread could continue with "How well did Beethoven know Mozart's piano concerto no.20 (D minor)". I'll bet he knew it. Mozart, all of a sudden, created the romantic concert, says a German musicologist. Who wrote the cadenza to the 1st movement, the one more generaly heard? Is George Grove the same who has the dictionary of music and musicians?

[Peter]

This thread could continue with "How well did Beethoven know Mozart's piano concerto no.20 (D minor)". I'll bet he knew it. Mozart, all of a sudden, created the romantic concert, says a German musicologist. Who wrote the cadenza to the 1st movement, the one more generaly heard? Is George Grove the same who has the dictionary of music and musicians?

We know Beethoven admired and wrote cadenzas for this concerto.
Re. Sir George Grove
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Grove

[Enrique]

I we all were to use wikipedia I think there would be no fora. Anyways, thanks for the link.