How well did Beethoven know Mozart's symphony in G minor?

[Enrique]

There are reasons to believe the opening bars in Beethoven's 5th symphony, 3rd movement were inspired by the first theme in the 4th movement of that famous work of Mozart's. But then Beethoven either knew the score or had listened to it in some concert. Can it be said that the maestro had the simphony no.40 score in his hands? For instance I know this is the case with Brahms, because there was a princess who gave him the score as a gift.

[Peter]

There are reasons to believe the opening bars in Beethoven's 5th symphony, 3rd movement were inspired by the first theme in the 4th movement of that famous work of Mozart's. But then Beethoven either knew the score or had listened to it in some concert. Can it be said that the maestro had the symphony no.40 score in his hands? For instance I know this is the case with Brahms, because there was a princess who gave him the score as a gift.

Beethoven certainly knew the symphony as he copied out 29 bars into one of his notebooks. As to the opening of Mozart's finale it is a rising arpeggio pattern that was commonly known as the 'Mannheim Rocket' as it was a device frequently used by composers from the Mannheim school. Beethoven had himself used it earlier in the opening of his F minor sonata Op.2/1. Another well known example is the finale of Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik.

[Michael]

The 29 bars of the Mozart G minor are actually in one of Beethoven's sketchbooks for his fifth symphony.
Also, in the finale of the C minor symphony there is a quotation (deliberate or not) from the slow movement of Mozart's Jupiter symphony.

[Enrique]

Could you, Michael, embed a youtube video and point to the exact place (in the 5th, 4th movement)?

[Peter]

Could you, Michael, embed a youtube video and point to the exact place (in the 5th, 4th movement)?

The opening bars of Mozart's symphony 41 2nd Movt and 0.35 in the Beethoven.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXBaD2a7K6c[/YOUTUBE]


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEbemYN-oXw[/YOUTUBE]

[Michael]

Peter has done it above, Enrique.
(Thanks, Peter.)

[Enrique]

I see it now, though the match is not so extensive as in the 5th, 3rd movement. I think the scherzi in the 3rd, 5th and 9th are astonishing pieces of music. How much mystery in the opening bars of the 5th 3rd movement. And then the same motif as in the begining of the symphony, so powerful as it is.

[Zevy]

Beethoven certainly knew the symphony as he copied out 29 bars into one of his notebooks. As to the opening of Mozart's finale it is a rising arpeggio pattern that was commonly known as the 'Mannheim Rocket' as it was a device frequently used by composers from the Mannheim school. Beethoven had himself used it earlier in the opening of his F minor sonata Op.2/1. Another well known example is the finale of Mozart's Eine kleine Nachtmusik.

This discussion is very interesting. My question is: Does anyone have a monopoly on a G minor (Mozart Symphony 40/4), G major (EKN 4th movement) or C minor (Beethoven Symphony 5/3) arpeggiated chord? Anyone can use it without being accused of plagiarism. Just sayin'.

[Peter]

This discussion is very interesting. My question is: Does anyone have a monopoly on a G minor (Mozart Symphony 40/4), G major (EKN 4th movement) or C minor (Beethoven Symphony 5/3) arpeggiated chord? Anyone can use it without being accused of plagiarism. Just sayin'.

You're quite right Zevy. Most 18th/19th century melodies are based on scale and arpeggio patterns. Just a few examples - Brahms' Violin concerto opens with a D major arpeggio as does the finale of Beethoven's Violin concerto. Brahms's 3rd symphony opens with a descending F major arpeggio and Beethoven's Pastoral finale opens with an F major broken chord for the main theme - all of these pieces though are completely different from each other in character as are the examples of Mozart and Beethoven symphonies cited on this thread.

[Michael]

The fact that the opening bars of the G minor symphony appear in Beethoven's sketchbook for his C minor symphony does seem to indicate a deliberate quotation.

I believe that Beethoven exulted in showing what he could do with any type of material. In the famous showdown with Steibelt, he famously turned a piece of music upside down and proceeded to improvise on this "theme". His performance was so astounding that he caused Steibelt to leave the room.

Beethoven was always aware of the greatness of Mozart and I think he took great satisfaction in using - and totally transforming - Mozartian themes in his Fifth Symphony. He demonstrated his indebtedness to Mozart while showing his independence. After all, he was in his prolific middle period years and knew exactly where he was going.

It's hard to believe such musical headwork was taking place in a man who was relentlessly losing his hearing.

[Peter]

The fact that the opening bars of the G minor symphony appear in Beethoven's sketchbook for his C minor symphony does seem to indicate a deliberate quotation.

I believe that Beethoven exulted in showing what he could do with any type of material. In the famous showdown with Steibelt, he famously turned a piece of music upside down and proceeded to improvise on this "theme". His performance was so astounding that he caused Steibelt to leave the room.

Beethoven was always aware of the greatness of Mozart and I think he took great satisfaction in using - and totally transforming - Mozartian themes in his Fifth Symphony. He demonstrated his indebtedness to Mozart while showing his independence. After all, he was in his prolific middle period years and knew exactly where he was going.

It's hard to believe such musical headwork was taking place in a man who was relentlessly losing his hearing.

Yes but Beethoven would hardly have needed to copy out Mozart to come up with a rising arpeggio! That occurs in his own earlier sonata in F minor Op.2/1 as well as in countless works by other composers as it was a common device.

[Michael]

Yes but Beethoven would hardly have needed to copy out Mozart to come up with a rising arpeggio! That occurs in his own earlier sonata in F minor Op.2/1 as well as in countless works by other composers as it was a common device.

Yes - to quote Beethoven himself: "Sometimes the opposite is also true".

[Enrique]

Beethoven had himself used it [the Mannheim Rocket] earlier in the opening of his F minor sonata Op.2/1.

But both Mozart and Beethoven put an augmented forth degree after the rocket. That is not found in the sonata:

Mozart:    D - G - Bb - d - G - Bb - A - C#
Beethoven: G - C - Eb - G - C - Eb - D - F#

[Enrique]

The fact that the opening bars of the G minor symphony appear in Beethoven's sketchbook for his C minor symphony does seem to indicate a deliberate quotation.

I believe that Beethoven exulted in showing what he could do with any type of material. In the famous showdown with Steibelt, he famously turned a piece of music upside down and proceeded to improvise on this "theme". His performance was so astounding that he caused Steibelt to leave the room.

Beethoven was always aware of the greatness of Mozart and I think he took great satisfaction in using - and totally transforming - Mozartian themes in his Fifth Symphony. He demonstrated his indebtedness to Mozart while showing his independence. After all, he was in his prolific middle period years and knew exactly where he was going.

It's hard to believe such musical headwork was taking place in a man who was relentlessly losing his hearing.

This seems to me a really intelligent post. Excepting the last paragraph, which reflects the idea the man of the street has about deaf composers. Deafness and the musical creation are totally unrelated things in a composer.

[Michael]

This seems to me a really intelligent post. Excepting the last paragraph, which reflects the idea the man of the street has about deaf composers. Deafness and the musical creation are totally unrelated things in a composer.

I am fully aware that practically any musician can create music in his head. However, we are not discussing ordinary work, but music at its highest level, involving complex orchestration - and all this without the technical and emotional feedback the composer gets from actually hearing his work performed or rehearsed. He had to rely mainly on his aural imagination.

Almost certainly, at this time, Beethoven could not hear any of the high frequencies properly. This may be the reason why so much of his middle period orchestration favours the basses and cellos.

And remember that, at this period of his life, Beethoven was not only losing his hearing but he was also subjected to severe tinnitus. As he said himself, his ears "roared and whistled" most of the time.
He did not compose against a background of blissful silence.

It took tremendous concentration and will-power to compose music of such quality with all those terrible distractions.