Symphony #10???

[Michael Riedmuller]

I thought that I had read somewhere the Beethoven had done some sketches for tenth symphony. Is this correct or am I imagining this? If he did, what do we know about it? Where can I get more info on this?

[Chris]

He did indeed start on a 10th symphony. One Dr. Barry Cooper took it upon himself to realize an entire first movement from the sketches. (You can buy that <a href = "http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003YPG/qid%3D1014055668/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/103-5808819-8309467">here</a>.) In my opinion, it is quite crappy, because it is not very Beethoven-like. I am sure that if Beethoven had gotten around to finishing it, it would have turned out quite differently. Dr. Cooper would have done better to let the sketches be.

As for the rest of us, there are plenty of fantastic Beethoven pieces out there that he did finish but are hardly ever played or heard. These are certainly better things to concentrate on. After all, why invent new Beethoven pieces when we haven't really exhausted the real ones? Nevertheless, you may wish to check out that CD, just to hear some of it. There is also another track on it with Dr. Cooper speaking about the 10th - telling the story of it, so to speak.

[Tashibabes]

You can also hear the sketches at the "Unheard Beethoven" site...they do lots of unheard works on midi files, and its a cool place to check out.

[Michael Riedmuller]

Thanks for the help! I had thought that I had read that, but it has been a long time. I am curious to see where he was going with it, but perhaps there is some reading material that would do a better job of analizing the sketches than the recording you refered to? Is there a copy of the sketches I could purchase somewhere? I mainly want to just satisfy a curiousity. Thanks again!

[Joy]

I have to agree with Chris that the Cooper rendition of trying to finish Beethoven's 10th is not very Beethoven like at all. I also don't like when people assume they know how the composer would have done it. How presumptuous! Didn't Beethoven write about 10-14 min. of the 10th and didn't he say soemthing like, 'this is going to be my greatest symphony'. He had a lot of confidence in it, I believe.

Joy

[Michael Riedmuller]

I imagine this reply may draw some criticism, but I wanted to follow up on this topic now that I have had a chance to listen to the piece with my own ears. I disagree with the comments that the work is Un- Beethoven like. I have listened to this piece several times and played it for others and I feel that there are many portions of the piece that are unmistakably Beethoven. I don't think any of us are qualified to say what Beethoven would have done with this had he finished it as he has been dead for roughly 175 years. Do any of us really know the composer? I do understand the comment that it was presumptuous to do something of this nature, but imagine if you some knowledge of Beethovens creative process and the access to the material in question. The temptation would probably get the better of you. Dr Cooper did not start out with this in mind, he was merely researching Beethovens sketches to better understand his creative thinking process. He and Mr Brandenberg both stumbled onto the sketches separately and began to realise that there was more there than originally thought.
I spoke to Dr Cooper via email about the piece and he was kind enough to take time out of his busy schedule at the University in England he currently teaches at to reply. He reiterated that the piece is more of an artists impression of the first movement (something he states in the liner notes of the cd) and not a new Beethoven Symphony. Dr Cooper is not the first person to finish a work started by another composer, Mozarts Requiem is a prime example of this. There is also another gentleman who is trying to complete the Scherzo portion of the tenth symphony even though there is little to go on at this point. It all comes down to taste in the end, what you like and don't like. I do respect that. I dislike the Hanover Bands interpretation of the Ninth Symphony (I prefer Ormandy myself), but it is just my personal taste. I spent years studying music and yet I do not feel qualified to comment on what Dr Cooper has done or what Beethoven would have done. That is beyond my knowledge and ability.

In the end, I respect everyones opinion and only wanted to voice mine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We can agree to disagree.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael Riedmuller:

.....In the end, I respect everyones opinion and only wanted to voice mine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We can agree to disagree.

Cooper is a surprisingly accessible person. I have sent him a few emails myself and received immediate replies. However regardless of whether the '10th' sounds Beethovenian or not, I believe the idea was misguided. But the crime does not keep me awake at night! What was wrong the the Hanover Band's 9th? I have a few critisisms of it myself but it is the version I play most. The only Ormandy recording I have is of B's oratorio - ok, but there are much better versions.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[camden]

Has anyone considered how much money Cooper must have made from B's 10th? Oh yes!, I suspect much more than he gets from his books. Did you know he no doubt gets the Royalties from that, performance and recording and otherwise. I think herin lies a significant motivation. I am sure he isn't particularly bothered by the Beethoven fans complaining it "isn't like Beethoven" either since we are the ones who buy it out of insatiable curiosity, or even because we can't wait to criticise it.

Still I think the realisation is good fun, and Cooper is one of the best of Beethoven Scolars in my opinion. His "Beethoven and the Creative Process" is outstanding and completely changed the way I approached sketching my own pieces. Good luck to him!

Anthony Payne recently did a similar thing with Elgar and earnt a mint by the way.

[Rutradelusasa]

Rod, could you ask Dr. Cooper if he has a virtual version of the score, or a real one that I could get?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
Rod, could you ask Dr. Cooper if he has a virtual version of the score, or a real one that I could get?

You can ask him yourself, I would not wish to give the impression that people were interested in his 'effort', he might do another one! For the record I haven't even heard it. You can find Coopers email address quite easily searching Yahoo.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Michael Riedmuller]

I do like a good majority of the Hanover Bands interpretations, but I just am not crazy about the ninth. I think it is mostly the varied tempos in the last movement. I don't deny that it is interesting though. I do like their version of the Missa pretty well. I think my preference to Ormandys Ninth is that I grew up with it. I have several version, but that one is my favorite.

I imagine Dr Cooper does pretty well of the royalties for that recording. I think he realised this symphony for several reasons, money was probably one of them. I think it was a challenge and I think he did rather well. It isn't half bad.

As for the score, the liner notes state the orchestral score is available on hire from Universal Edition in London. Dr Cooper works for the University of Manchester in England. His email address is not hard to find if you run a search on Yahoo, which is how I found him. He really seems to be a friendly person and believes sincerely that he kept the score to what Beethoven sketched out.

I am glad noone got angry with my post. I was sincerely trying to point out that personal tastes can vary. You guys are great!!

[FeRdInAnD]

Hey didn't Beethoven plan to call the 10th the Allemand Symphony? Or is it a rumour?

Originally posted by Michael Riedmuller:
I thought that I had read somewhere the Beethoven had done some sketches for tenth symphony. Is this correct or am I imagining this? If he did, what do we know about it? Where can I get more info on this?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael Riedmuller:
I do like a good majority of the Hanover Bands interpretations, but I just am not crazy about the ninth. I think it is mostly the varied tempos in the last movement.

The march and following fugue are undertaken too slowly in this recording. But overall I like it, especially the brass spurting out in the Scherzo.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by FeRdInAnD:
Hey didn't Beethoven plan to call the 10th the Allemand Symphony? Or is it a rumour?

All I've read him refer to it is simply a 'symphony in C Minor'. I doubt if he would have given it an offical 'name' unless the work was something really out of the ordinary, so to speak.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 03-12-2002).]

[Michael Riedmuller]

The main body of info I have uncovered sofar comes from Ludwig Nohl.Here are a couple of quotes from him:
" Turning to the remarkable plan of the Tenth Symphony itself,we rely upon the following note from the year 1818, which, after the above manifold references and allusions, we are justified in associating with that projected work. The memorandum say: "Adagio Cantique, hymnlike song, in a symphony, written in the old modes (Lord God we praise Thee, Hallelujah!) either separate or as introduction to a fugue. Perhaps in this manner the entire second symphony to be characterized, in which case the voices would appear in the last movement. or already in the adagio. The orchestral violins, etc, will in the last movement be increased tenfold. Or else the Adagio will in the last movement be repeated when the voices will only gradually enter. The text to be Greek mythos; cantique ecclesiastique; in the Allegro, 'Feast of Bacchus.'"

" Concerning the question of key, Beethoven's friend Holz(who during these last years of the composers life had been on specially intimate terms with him) gives the following account: "The Tenth Symphony commences with an Adante in E flat, 3/4 time, assigned to wind instruments, and changes suddenly into a stormy Allegro, representing the feast of Bacchus." The latter , of which the sketches are extant, has 6/8 time and the key of C major, while Holz mentions C minor as being the key; a supposition which is borne out by the subsequent sketches. "

" The motive of the Scherzo, C minor, 3/4 time, is the first of the sketches. Then follows the motive B,A,C,H, (the latter being the B on the German scale) originally appertaining to a long projected overture in honor of the "arch father of Harmony", Sebastion Bach. This is followed by the jubilant theme in 6/8 time, the feast of Bacchus, which is superscribed "Finale of the first movement." Next comes a notation, 2/4, A Flat Major, referring, according to Schindler, to the Adagio; but neother an "old mode," nor a Te Deum laudamus, nor a Hallelujah can be discovered. Finally to the word "Fugue,"the sketches contain a motive in C Minor, 2/4, resembling the second portion of the theme of the Fugue in E major from the second part of Bach's "Wohltemperirtes Clavier," evidently the finale of the work, since,as wehave heard, the Adagio was to have culminated in a Fugue."

Thought someone might find this interesting!