Originally posted by Peter
-
Yes, that's right; the earlier one was shorter, if I remember, because his mother became ill. In any case, I've read 3 bios of Beethoven and I can't remember Mozart figuring in any of these. -
True, that could well be the case. In the footnote I quoted above, Albrecht goes further, saying that Beethoven's first stay in Vienna was originally thought to have lasted only two weeks in April 1787. The trip actually lasted from circa January 14 to March 28, giving him roughly 10 weeks to have met and studied with Mozart.Originally posted by Peter View PostComment
-
For me the bottom line is that Beethoven is superior to Mozart anyway. I find the latter's music hasn't aged well with me; the exact opposite of Beethoven who has grown as I've grown. If I had to assess Mozart in a single phrase, it could be "where would he be without the Alberti Bass"??!!
I learned the difference between Haydn, Schubert and Mozart a few years ago in Vienna when Mozart's music was played some Sundays for Hochamt alongside Schubert and Haydn - on consecutive weeks. I found Mozart's sacred pieces - as well as his stand-alone pieces - theatrical and annoyingly flamboyant and showy compared to the others I mentioned. Ergo; he doesn't measure up for me alongside Schubert or Haydn, particularly in this repertoire. The last few symphonies of Mozart are very fine indeed, particularly No. 41 - the rest, more or less, sound the same. The piano sonatas reveal some interesting modulations and effects but the last few of Haydn are equally as good. So, where does that leave Mozart? With rusted-on admirers.
I'm not a fan of the "Missa Solemnis" either - finding it dense, somewhat opaque and not as good as Beethoven's greater works - and I prefer the much earlier Mass in C. But both of them are preferable to Mozart, IMO.Last edited by Schenkerian; 03-28-2022, 11:12 PM.Comment
-
Apropos the Mass in C, can somebody tell me why the vocal lines here in this score would be set on varied clefs?
Comment
-
The soprano parts use the soprano clef, the alto parts use the alto clef, the tenor parts use the tenor clef, and the bass parts use the bass clef. This keeps the notes nicely centered on the staff without having to use too many ledger lines for the range of each vocal part.Comment
-
For the epicureans among us, on pages 99-100 of this volume, Beethoven on Tuesday April 4 1820 ca. 3 p.m. is walking through the Wildpretmarkt (game market) with Oliva ( a friend who does a lot of errands and admin stuff for the composer). They're checking out prices and Oliva writes: Wild ducks are already bad and cost 25 groschen; partridges likewise [bad], 1 Thaler. Rabbit, also this way, up to 2 fl. Venison is now the best game meat; the leg costs 6 fl; the rump, 5 fl. Beethoven then interjects: Wild duck - large. I take this to mean that he orders one anyway! No doubt his housekeeper would have cooked it for him. Anyway, it's nice to read that Beethoven ate stuff that I also like to eat, especially in late autumn and winter!!Comment
-
And now for a great passage (same volume, page 137, Wednesday April 12, 1820) where Beethoven jots down the opening theme of the Piano Sonata in E major, Op. 109.
Beethoven and Oliva have rented a fiacre (a small four-wheeled carriage for public hire) to go to Modling for the day to sort out a rental property for the coming summer. The conversation book at this point has the banter between the two men as the carriage goes along the road, sometimes bumpy (with irregular handwriting) and sometimes smoother. Beethoven makes a note to himself to check out the shutters and wood storage once they get to the property and then jots down the opening of the sonata with that distinctive da-daa, da-daa, da-daa, da-daa rhythm (semiquaver-dotted quaver). I know this is pure speculation on my part but it strikes me that the rhythm might reflect the carriage as it bounces - irregularly - along the road.Comment
-
Actually, when I think a bit more about it, the melodic contour also seems to recreate the "lurching side-to-side" movement of the carriage...Comment
-
Comment
-
vive la diff?renceSorry, But as much as I admire LVB, I will never, ever tire of (almost) any Mozart, and that includes many of his lesser known works.I don't think we should be going there, as this is a moot conversation and it probably doesn't belong on this forum.Vive la diff?rence!Originally posted by Schenkerian View PostFor me the bottom line is that Beethoven is superior to Mozart anyway. I find the latter's music hasn't aged well with me; the exact opposite of Beethoven who has grown as I've grown. If I had to assess Mozart in a single phrase, it could be "where would he be without the Alberti Bass"??!!
I learned the difference between Haydn, Schubert and Mozart a few years ago in Vienna when Mozart's music was played some Sundays for Hochamt alongside Schubert and Haydn - on consecutive weeks. I found Mozart's sacred pieces - as well as his stand-alone pieces - theatrical and annoyingly flamboyant and showy compared to the others I mentioned. Ergo; he doesn't measure up for me alongside Schubert or Haydn, particularly in this repertoire. The last few symphonies of Mozart are very fine indeed, particularly No. 41 - the rest, more or less, sound the same. The piano sonatas reveal some interesting modulations and effects but the last few of Haydn are equally as good. So, where does that leave Mozart? With rusted-on admirers.
I'm not a fan of the "Missa Solemnis" either - finding it dense, somewhat opaque and not as good as Beethoven's greater works - and I prefer the much earlier Mass in C. But both of them are preferable to Mozart, IMO.
ZevyComment
-
Just to quickly return to Peter's comment... True, they're not cheap, these volumes, but really, the sheer scholarship more than justifies the price in my view. I'm learning stuff each time that I pick one up! I'm hooked but as a total Beethoven fanboy I ain't complaining!!!Originally posted by Peter View PostComment
-
I doubt you'd find a vocal performance score today that had those clefs! You're right though about reducing the need for too many ledger lines, hence the 3 clefs for 'cellists. And occasional use of the treble clef for viola players.Originally posted by Chris View PostComment
-
Anyway, shall we get back to the conversation books?Comment
-
Of course, I welcome your opinion and understand it's a completely subjective one I've made. But how quickly people reach for the cancel culture lever when an opinion doesn't accord with their own - when the topic IS about Mozart and Beethoven meeting him - is just so representative of the zeitgeist. I never got a sense from any biography about Beethoven that he was over-awed his whole life about Mozart, though certainly he was a huge influence earlier on. And neither was Schubert. Haydn seemed to have shifted his allegiance from (Mozart) 'the greatest composer known to me" to "the great mogul" about Beethoven! Schubert wanted to be buried alongside Beethoven and seldom mentioned Mozart.Originally posted by Zevy View Post
But, there being no further correspondence to be entered into, I'll leave it there. Bye now.
Last edited by Schenkerian; 03-29-2022, 09:56 PM.Comment
Comment