How high does the mass in C major rank among the master's output? A long time ago I listened to it and made aan impression on me. Lately I reapeated the experience but not with the same result, though the llatter depends much on animic disposiiton, in my case at least.
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It has never been that popular and of course was later overshadowed by the much greater Missa Solemnis. It contains some fine music but for me at least I've never really engaged with it, maybe time to listen again as it has been a long time.'Man know thyself' -
I have always found it to be one of Beethoven's most beautiful works. But it has had a bad press from the word go. I blame Prince Esterhazy and his remark: "My dear Beethoven, what are you after doing now?" or words to that effect.Comment
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I really like the work, and I went through a period where I listened to it quite a lot a few years ago. It's too bad that it's frequently overlooked.Comment
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I'm guilty myself of brushing aside the Mass in C in favour of the Missa Solemnis.
The opus 86 mass is quite fine, albeit not his most earth-shattering work. I could say the same for Christus am Ölberge, though, which I also feel is overlooked.He fled the world because he did not find, in the whole compass of his loving nature, a weapon with which to resist it.Comment
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I think iit must never be put in comparison with the D major. First the C is a compact work. Secondly, they reflect quite different worlds. That is they are completely independent form each other save for the religious element which amounts to say, save for the text, hummm... True, religious thoughts can have been in the master's mind... There certainly were such elmes in case of the Missa Solemnis, no doubt, though in a Beethovenian way. I'm "overspeaking", excuse me.
Regarding the mass in D isn't the Sanctus beginning one oof the high points in the whole mass?Last edited by Enrique; 03-14-2018, 12:12 AM.Comment
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The part in the Sanctus where the Holy Spirit descends to Earth is beyond words. That's where the solo violin comes in on the high E string and takes over the melody, and the chorus starts singing, "Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini." It starts several minutes into the Sanctus.Originally posted by Enrique View PostHe fled the world because he did not find, in the whole compass of his loving nature, a weapon with which to resist it.Comment
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Yes - absolutely beautiful. I find the Agnus Dei even more moving if that's possible.Originally posted by Jacred View PostComment
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Oh, definitely. Nothing as heart stopping for me as when the soprano screams, "Miserere!" in face of the advancing military.Originally posted by Michael View PostHe fled the world because he did not find, in the whole compass of his loving nature, a weapon with which to resist it.Comment
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All that if for the theater. But it happens to be a mass!Comment
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In the Missa Solemnis, for me the most dramatic moment is in the Credo 'Et resurrexit'.'Man know thyself'Comment
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It's more like a choral symphony than a mass. Beethoven wasn't going to let the liturgical text constrain him. Having said that, the Missa Solemnis is more deeply religious than many other masses that strictly adhere to the "proper" scheme.Originally posted by Enrique View PostComment
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Some interesting programme notes about this:
His study in preparation for the Missa Solemnis was the most extensive he ever undertook, and the finished work displays many influences, both ecclesiastical and musical, all intended to give the richest and most moving expression to the text. He not only had a meticulous German translation of the Latin verses made so that he could consider the meaning and effect of each word, but he also studied the ancient tongue to learn its rhythms and stresses. He frequently consulted his friend August Friedrich Kanne, an expert on the history of the Mass. In addition to his textual studies, Beethoven also undertook a surprisingly wide examination of earlier sacred music, from the ancient chants of the monks and the theoretical treatises of the 16th-century Italian pedagogue Gioseffe Zarlino, through the works of Palestrina and the oratorios of Handel (Beethoven copied out several choruses from Messiah and let it be known that he considered Handel the greatest of all composers), to the Mass settings of Bach, Mozart and Joseph and Michael Haydn. A wide variety of styles was consequently absorbed into the Missa Solemnis, and one of its chief wonders is the unity the piece ultimately achieves.
The most vivid possible expression of the text was the motivating force behind every note that Beethoven inscribed into this score. His careful matching of tone to word arose from things pictorially descriptive (for example, the flying scales at “et ascendit in coelum”—”and ascended into heaven”), things liturgical (the hushed Praeludium preceding the Benedictus, which would accompany the elevation of the Host), or things personal (the pastoral and martial sections inserted into the Agnus Dei, which were called “a prayer for inner and outer peace”.'Man know thyself'Comment
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There is no doubt that Beethoven was extremely scrupulous when setting words to music and that was one of the reasons why he found song-setting more difficult than purely instrumental works (even though he wrote nearly a hundred lieder).
The point I was making about the Missa Solemnis was that he did compose it in a symphonic manner; the Credo, for example, has a recurring rondo-like theme which culminates in what is, to all intents and purposes, a recapitulation.
And he was selective in the way he presented certain sections of the liturgical text. He omitted nothing, but, for example, he devoted a long fugal section to the words "Et vitam venturi saeculi" "the life of the world to come".
Whereas the section dealing with "one holy Catholic and Apostolic church" is rattled off in a few seconds - you can barely hear it in the background. Even the "Amen" of the Gloria was granted more music than this!
I don't think religious denominations mattered much to him - this work was dedicated to Man as much as to God. And he finally broke all boundaries in the astonishing "Agnus Dei" - it is so full of pain and terror and it culminates - not in a prayer - but an absolute demand for peace.
.Last edited by Michael; 03-15-2018, 04:21 PM.Comment
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So be it, Enrique!Originally posted by Enrique
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