Quartet recordings

[Chris]

Originally posted by Peter:
I know what you mean - I have had a whole lesson spent on the opening bar of the 4th piano Concerto and I remember a lesson where nothing was 'played' but the rests in the Liszt Bminor sonata !
Brendel takes the Adagio of Op.106 at 19'36

I think that performers are becoming more aware of the problems you mention and are less likely to take the liberties that were common a generation ago - the authentic
movement has undoubtedly played a part in this.

I have a recording of Brendel playing it at 17'46. Much better that way, I think.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
I have a recording of Brendel playing it at 17'46. Much better that way, I think.

I used to have Gilels recording that also lasted around 19 mins as far as I can remember, which is waaay to slow. B's adagios usually require a certain element of movement & dynamism in them somewhere. I'm sure I've read Czerny or maybe Ries saying his slow movements weren't played particularly slow (by the metronome), rather it was his manner of playing that conveyed a sence of peace.

I have a recording by Badura-Skoda playing an 1820's original Graf lasting circa 16.5 minutes, still touch too broad in my opinion. The quickest rendition I have seen is by Jeno Jando (Naxos) lasting circa 14.5 mins but I haven't heard it. This time could be fine on a fortepiano but might sound a little rushed on the modern (ie. thicker toned) instrument he plays. B's metronome marks certainly are possible on the fp.

Rod

[Chris]

Rod, I've noticed that some of the times you like for pieces just seem to break the natural tempo of the piece for me. I think 16.5 or 14.5 would throw things way off. I think the movement itself wouldn't make sense. 19 seems a bit long to me. Must just be how I hear things.

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"Wagner's music is better than it sounds." - Mark Twain

[Peter]

Beethoven of course suffers from having had an unreliable metronome - however I think that there is a range of tempi that his works must fall within and straying too far either way is simply unacceptable.Musical common sense should decide this as indeed it has to with earlier music where not only are exact speeds not indicated, but dynamics are rather hazy and often totally absent.
I agree that is quite incredible to hear performances by artists who should no better doing the most stupid things not only to Beethoven but others as well - I've lost count of the number of times I've heard the opening of the 5th Symphony played at half the speed of the rest of the movement. However I think the worst tempo crime I ever heard was the last movement of the Schumann piano concerto played as though it were being sight-read at virtually half-speed - the audience however clapped enthusiastically in typical polite English fashion - had Berlioz been present, there would have been a riot !


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chris:
Rod, I've noticed that some of the times you like for pieces just seem to break the natural tempo of the piece for me. I think 16.5 or 14.5 would throw things way off. I think the movement itself wouldn't make sense. 19 seems a bit long to me. Must just be how I hear things.

On the contrary Chris, see my posting about op9/3. I'm not into speed at any cost. I also qualified my preference for op106 by stating that such a tempo would be more appropriate for the fortepiano than a modern instrument. Not an unreasonable position if one is aware of the respective qualities of both instruments, which may have a bearing on B's (fast) metronome indications for this work. On the Graf, 16.5 sounds almost as broad as 19 on a Steinway due to the light tone and quicker decay. Playing the piece so broadly destroys the melodic line.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chris]

Originally posted by Rod:
On the contrary Chris, see my posting about op9/3. I'm not into speed at any cost. I also qualified my preference for op106 by stating that such a tempo would be more appropriate for the fortepiano than a modern instrument. Not an unreasonable position if one is aware of the respective qualities of both instruments, which may have a bearing on B's (fast) metronome indications for this work. On the Graf, 16.5 sounds almost as broad as 19 on a Steinway due to the light tone and quicker decay. Playing the piece so broadly destroys the melodic line.

Rod

No, no, I wasn't saying you are into speed at any cost. I just find that you frequently find that things need to be a bit faster than I do.

[Serge]

Well! I am fascinated by the discussion one simple line of text I wrote could produce! I love reading all of this! I'm considering everything you have all said.
I have something to add about the glorified op. 106. I have a recording by Kuerti of the 106 I "enjoy" (this work is still too tough for me to grasp, so I enjoy it the best I can), and he plays the Adagio sostenuto out for over 25 minutes! This, by some, would be excessively long, but to me, as having no other recording to go by, the work sounds just ducky.
I mention this because Kuerti for this recording (part of a 10-disc set)writes a fair bit about all 32 sonatas and the diabelli var. also included. He talks about Beethoven's new Braodwood and how it was bigger and louder and increased in range to over six octaves. Plus, Kuerti mentions the fact this work was the only sonata to have metronome markings and further, that following them would actaully have robbed the piece of its inherent detail. So perhaps this information could fuel the controversy.
Until I learn more of the piece, I won't offer a personal opinion, but tell me, what do you all think?...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:

...I have something to add about the glorified op. 106. I have a recording by Kuerti of the 106 I "enjoy" (this work is still too tough for me to grasp, so I enjoy it the best I can), and he plays the Adagio sostenuto out for over 25 minutes! This, by some, would be excessively long, but to me, as having no other recording to go by, the work sounds just ducky.
I mention this because Kuerti for this recording (part of a 10-disc set)writes a fair bit about all 32 sonatas and the diabelli var. also included. He talks about Beethoven's new Braodwood and how it was bigger and louder and increased in range to over six octaves. Plus, Kuerti mentions the fact this work was the only sonata to have metronome markings and further, that following them would actaully have robbed the piece of its inherent detail. So perhaps this information could fuel the controversy.
Until I learn more of the piece, I won't offer a personal opinion, but tell me, what do you all think?...

I'm not surprised you can't grasp op106 if the adagio lasts 25 mins - at this tempo there is nothing left of the music to grasp! What must be the timings for the other movements!? For the first Allegro I consider nothing over 10 minutes. This is the other movement that is always messed up in my opinion.

Regarding Beethovens Broadwood, it's keyboard compass was obsolete by Viennese standards before Beethoven even received it. Op 106 (which he was working on before the Broadwood arrived) requires a greater compass than the Broadwood offers, as does the remainder of B's piano output from this time. Although he was justlt proud of the gift, B's initial enthusiasm for the English instrument was not maintained - in a later letter he states the instrument did not meet his expectations of it.

Regarding the metronome marks, if one applies them to the opening measures and not strictly across the whole movement they are fine, on the fortepiano at least. But the rest of the movement must be played bearing the mark in mind. I recall reading that on another occasion when he supplied metronome figures (for Christus, I think) B stated that they applied to the opening measures.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

Kuerti's recording goes as follows:
Allegro-- 11:21
Scherzo-- 2:32
Adagio-- 25:02
Largo; Allegro risoluto: 12:53
All in all, eight minutes shy of a full hour.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Serge:
Kuerti's recording goes as follows:
Allegro-- 11:21
Scherzo-- 2:32
Adagio-- 25:02
Largo; Allegro risoluto: 12:53
All in all, eight minutes shy of a full hour.

I checked my recording by Paul Badura-Skoda using the Graf an the times are:

1: 9.47
2: 2.26
3: 16.46
4:11.08

As I have said, his adagio could do with further compression (by 1 minute, at least) but the other movements are as good as I can expect is possible.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Stephen F Vasta]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
I bought the Tokyo set some years ago – luckily it was in three separate sets – and I returned the middle and late ones and got my money back! Perfect playing, little soul and an acoustic that made them sound like a string octet

I disagree about the Tokyo - I found the performances fascinating and not at all cold. Interesting that you don't like the sound, Michael - I really enjoyed the richness, much as I do on the Italiano's performances!

Steve

[Michael]

[quote]Originally posted by Stephen F Vasta:

Originally posted by Michael:
I bought the Tokyo set some years ago – luckily it was in three separate sets – and I returned the middle and late ones and got my money back! Perfect playing, little soul and an acoustic that made them sound like a string octet

I disagree about the Tokyo - I found the performances fascinating and not at all cold. Interesting that you don't like the sound, Michael - I really enjoyed the richness, much as I do on the Italiano's performances!

Steve

I came across the complete set some years ago at a reduced price. I was very happy with the Italianos but I wanted another complete set for comparison and took a chance on this one. I can only speak for myself, Stephen, and I'm quite sure the Tokyo set has a lot going for it, but to me they sounded like a lot of modern quartets - frighteningly adept at playing the notes but unable to move me. (And I'm quite willing to believe that "me" could be the problem!)
Robert Layton in the "Gramophone" describes the effect very well. I can't remember his exact words but it was something like this: "A lot of string quartets today when playing Beethoven (or Mozart and Haydn for that matter) project an atmosphere of neon lighting and jet planes instead of candlelight and horse-drawn carriages."
Recording techniques could contribute a lot to this atmosphere (or lack of it) especially some digital recordings. Ideally, one should be able to listen through this but I can't.
The Quartetto Italiano set isn't perfect - especially the recording quality (there is no shortage of traffic noises) but you get the impression of four real people playing music in a room and not a sterile studio.

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I came across the complete set some years ago at a reduced price. I was very happy with the Italianos but I wanted another complete set for comparison and took a chance on this one. I can only speak for myself, Stephen, and I'm quite sure the Tokyo set has a lot going for it, but to me they sounded like a lot of modern quartets - frighteningly adept at playing the notes but unable to move me. (And I'm quite willing to believe that "me" could be the problem!)
Robert Layton in the "Gramophone" describes the effect very well. I can't remember his exact words but it was something like this: "A lot of string quartets today when playing Beethoven (or Mozart and Haydn for that matter) project an atmosphere of neon lighting and jet planes instead of candlelight and horse-drawn carriages."
Recording techniques could contribute a lot to this atmosphere (or lack of it) especially some digital recordings. Ideally, one should be able to listen through this but I can't.
The Quartetto Italiano set isn't perfect - especially the recording quality (there is no shortage of traffic noises) but you get the impression of four real people playing music in a room and not a sterile studio.

Michael

I agree with you that a lot of modern recordings sound sterile, I have been critical of modern recording standards myself. The older recordings tend to sound more 'intimate'

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[chrisg]

I disagree about the Tokyo - I found the performances fascinating and not at all cold. Interesting that you don't like the sound, Michael - I really enjoyed the richness, much as I do on the Italiano's performances!

Steve[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm with Steve when it comes to Op.18 and the Middle Quartets. The Tokyo's Late Qts. don't do much for me though, maybe they just need to live with these works for another 20 years or so.

CG

[chrisg]

Robert Layton in the "Gramophone" describes the effect very well. I can't remember his exact words but it was something like this: "A lot of string quartets today when playing Beethoven (or Mozart and Haydn for that matter) project an atmosphere of neon lighting and jet planes instead of candlelight and horse-drawn carriages."

Michael
[/B][/QUOTE]

Michael, you should run for office. This RL line comes from his extremely positive review of the Tokyo's Op. 18 set, and I'd say your use of it gives quite the opposite impression from what he's really saying.

Layton writes, "I doubt whether quartet playing comes much better than in this Tokyo set of the Op. 18. Their set of the middle period quartets (RCA, 3/92) was very impressive both in terms of musical insight and technical perfection and ensemble.
Regular readers are (probably painfully) aware that I am generally unsympathetic to virtuoso quartets with their thrustful
fortissimos and high-powered projection. There must naturally be some sense of public utterance but the overriding impression must be of civilized discourse among friends. The performers must relate to the sensibility of the period, a world in which horse-driven vehicles and candlelight were the norm rather than jet engines and strip-lighting."

He goes on at some length about the merits of this set. Part of what he (and I) like about the Tokyo performances is that they display superb technical ability without crossing over into that "jet engine" thing.

BTW, I don't take any critics' opinion as more valuable than any other music lovers. I only quote them when they agree with me.

cg