Brahms the Progressive

[Humoresque]

(Peter, thanks for the comments on 'great conductors'.)

I started a discussion earlier on this topic re Brahms, which had been put into a wrong thread, and there was some divergence of opinion. Something has turned up to add weight to Schoenberg's view of Brahms as a "progressive" and it's this from Jan Swafford in his excellent biography of Johannes:

Swafford is discussing the early piano sonatas by Brahms, namely the C Major. He comments "even at this stage, Brahms's harmonic audacity rivalled Wagner's. The difference is that Brahms did not care to show off his audacities; usually they are integrated into the voice leading and structure, there to find for those who know where to look. Wagner placed his novelties to give the galleries goose bumps"(p.95).

[Peter]

Interesting that Swafford cites the C major sonata. Charles Rosen has a different opinion of this and says "all that is best in the new movement is a reaction against Beethoven, and all that is weakest is the attempts to pay homage" and he uses this sonata as just such an example of paying homage, in this case to Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata.

I'm not disagreeing with Schoenberg's views because he is quite right in pointing out the novelties in Brahms, however do we really rate a composer solely by how revolutionary he was? If we look at Mozart he was pretty conservative!

[Humoresque]

Absolutely not!! The point about Brahms is that he's long been regarded as old-fashioned, not having moved music a jot and 'pouring new wine into old bottles'. I disagree with that view.

Not sure about Rosen's views, but I've got two of his books on my shelf and neither of them discusses Brahms at all.

[Peter]

I presume you must have his 'The Classical style' and on P.379 he says that "both Mendelssohn and Brahms imitated the Hammerklavier with singularly awkward results."

[Humoresque]

I do have that book and will look up the quote.

No less a person than Robert Schumann thought Brahms had done brilliantly in his reference to the "Hammerklavier" in that piano sonata.

[Peter]

Absolutely not!! The point about Brahms is that he's long been regarded as old-fashioned, not having moved music a jot and 'pouring new wine into old bottles'. I disagree with that view.

I agree with you and it's quite clear to me that Brahms was a great master. I do find it extraordinary that great musicians such as Tchaikovsky could have had such a negative view of Brahms.

[Humoresque]

Schumann and his group (which included Joachim) referred to Brahms very early in their relationships as "a real Beethovener". Some of Schumann's writings about Brahms in the "Neue Bahnen" (New Paths) essay for Robert's recently sold music publication are breathless and cloying in the extreme - but we must remember that Schumann was unwell during this period. Brahms found himself at the centre of a whirlwind because Schumann had declared himself, alongside his new discovery, in opposition to the 'new music' movement of Liszt, Berlioz and Wagner. To that extent I think Schumann, undoubted as his affection was, used Brahms vicariously to achieve what he must have realized he would never be able to do himself. This was often somewhat disturbing to the unworldly 20 year old Brahms.

But one of the most important consequences of the relationship Brahms had with Robert Schumann is that the latter identified the need for Brahms to write for an orchestra; Schumann believed the piano music of Brahms was inherently 'symphonic' and strongly urged Johannes Brahms to write large works for the orchestra. He was indeed prescient with that invocation.

As to Tchaikovsky and his antipathy towards Brahms; both were very different composers - the former essentially theatrical. Brahms largely eschewed programmatic music and this would probably have left PT stone cold. In any case, Brahms himself had many unflattering remarks to make about some of his contemporaries (including Bruckner). How much credence we can derive from these 'bitchy' comments is uncertain.

[Peter]

As to Tchaikovsky and his antipathy towards Brahms; both were very different composers - the former essentially theatrical. Brahms largely eschewed programmatic music and this would probably have left PT stone cold. In any case, Brahms himself had many unflattering remarks to make about some of his contemporaries (including Bruckner). How much credence we can derive from these 'bitchy' comments is uncertain.

This is true and the whole so called 'war of the Romantics' was really based on composers being unable to appreciate a different approach to music other than their own or those who were in sympathy.